James, 10s:

What's up team and welcome Dent Who InvestDentistto the podcast. I'm super excited for this podcast episode, as I am every podcast episode, with this one in particular because we are shooting in the beautiful Dubai out here in a high rise, in the middle of downtown, very close to the Burj Khalifa, and I'm also excited because of the guests that we have all along today, because the caliber of the guests in Denyssey and Vest podcast absolutely fantastic, absolutely fabulous, and we are very, very, very keen to uphold that standard. And who other and who better to do that with than another property expert at house out next when you do buy property expert expat from the UK as well. So he knows this stuff. Whenever it comes to the UK market, he knows both. We're going to get into that in just a moment. This is going to be a very, very, very high level. How can we get into Dubai property? How can we do it safely? Who are the people that we need to know and how can we go about that, especially with the UK angle, is going to be hyper relevant to everybody in the UK and also hyper relevant to dentists. But before we get into that, I'm going to throw the mic over to Danny. Danny, how are you today, my friend?

Daniel, 1m 6s:

Very good. Thank you, james. Thank you very much for inviting me on to your podcast, which thrilled to talk to you. So when did we meet? We met at a networking event. We did a couple of months, a few months back, that's right. Yeah, so it's been hectic since then, but should I tell you a little bit about myself and yeah sure, sure, yeah, okay, so we have a long history of being involved in property in the UK. That started 30 years back in London, effectively Booking. Then we were at the very early days of the property boom and that business mainly focused on refurbishing properties for clients Generally tended to be in Kensington, knightsbury, chelsea, those kind of areas, but we did cover the whole city and at that point in time, you know, it was possible to make really good returns from the property market, not only for our clients but also for myself as well. We were able to do that. And then since then, really I think what we've seen and I think most people that have invested in UK real estate we've seen a steady decline over the last 10 years, not just in terms of the viability of the market, but the taxation has had a lot to do with things and the rights that are being assigned to tenants which are no longer favorable for landlords, making it a difficult landscape, and so I think, post COVID, the changes that we've seen have meant that staying invested in UK real estate is probably not the best option anymore. I understand there are strategies whereby it will work, but from our perspective it was very much a case of finding better opportunities. And Dubai, to be honest, was something that wasn't on my radar until a couple of years ago, and that's mainly due to my daughter. She showed me where all her friends were spending Christmas and a lot of them were in Dubai. So that kind of put Dubai on the radar and having conversations about the property market here and so on and so forth, and from that point on it was a case of having to come and see in person what was going on and, if we were going to invest here, how that would look and what would be involved in that process. So I think my take on the Dubai real estate market is maybe a little bit different to other people that work in this industry, in that I've kind of seen it, done it and got the t-shirt. Now.

James, 3m 52s:

Oh man, I can't wait to get into this episode of the beauty stuff. Yeah, man, it's going to be fun, yeah.

Daniel, 3m 57s:

So that was kind of the lead up to it and that resulted in buying off-blown property last year, and we have some other options lined up now which we're going to be taking forward. But yeah, in a nutshell, it's a very, very exciting time to be invested in Dubai.

James, 4m 14s:

Awesome man. And yeah, just to bring it back to the UK property market, I am very quick to admit that property is not my forte, but I have a passing interest in it, a little bit about it. Every realm and asset and finance is kind of linked, so I'm curious. My impression that I very much get of the UK property market is is because it's so, because it's so hot, right, and they don't want the price they want, they want it to continue to grow in value, but they don't want it to grow too much, right, because that loses them votes. That's not a popular thing. That, at least that's my impression. But then you've got this interesting area where Britain is relatively tiny and small with this big population, right, so you've got like a constrained supply, effectively. So my impression is you've got these successive governments who are just trying to keep at the right level of fizzing. Yeah, the right level of fizzing. Where it's growing, however, is not going too much, because that's obviously an unpopular thing with voters. And that's where all these flippin' wacky laws come in, like what they're bringing in at the minute where you can't evict your tenants, something like that, isn't it?

Daniel, 5m 14s:

Yeah, there's been some changes that have Shifted the the law into the favor of the tenant. Yeah, what this is meant for a lot of people, and certainly people of my generation and the generation above, is that for people that look for an, a viable alternative to a traditional pension fund, that have invested in property, what they're now seeing is that what was once a good option for them is slowly, you know, becoming eroded effectively by changes that are being made. And, to be honest with you, if we took something like a basic by to let scenario with an investor using 25% of the purchase price in their own cash, what we've seen over the last year is that by to let remortgage payments have now exceeded the actual rental income on that property. So obviously this isn't a great situation to be in and we're going to go to the taxation of it, but that's a different ballgame all together. I'm certainly not a tax expert so I won't speak on that too much, but anybody that is involved now will be feeling that pain, I feel sure.

James, 6m 32s:

Yeah, it's harder and harder to make a possible profitable and they just seem to shuffle the cards a little bit more against the landlords every single year.

Daniel, 6m 42s:

It's I don't think it's a case of landlords are being victimized and being selected for special treatment. I think what you'll probably find on a broader spectrum is that alternative investments as a whole are facing different challenges now, and that's certainly reflected with what we see here in the conversations that we have on a daily basis and quite interesting. People seem to think that when they do talk to us, that they almost feel as though we haven't heard this conversation before and this is a situation is unique to them, and that's certainly not the case. We hear this on a daily basis, especially from UK investors, from Germany as well, so it's not specific to the UK.

James, 7m 31s:

Cool, cool, cool, and you know what. I just want to throw something out there as well to the audience, to any landlords who are listening it is definitely still possible to make money in the UK. What we're talking about is macro themes here. Yes, what we're talking about is macro themes, of course. So it is still possible, if you've got a big buy, to let portfolio and you're listening to this podcast. We certainly don't mean to offend or anything along those lines. Like I say, we're just making macro comments about the general market, things that we can use to make better decisions and things that we can use we can think to ourselves Okay, cool, what's going on in the rest of the world and how can I increase my understanding of that? That's what we're here to do today. Not diminish anybody's investment strategy or start running no, not at all. Just important to throw that out there. Yeah, anyway, so we've talked about the UK market. Let's move on to Dubai and UAE, which is really exciting and interesting. How does the market differ right here, broadly speaking, broad strokes, from the UK?

Daniel, 8m 26s:

If you looked at it, the general landscape of it, it feels as though it has a lot of similarities with the UK market, especially the London real estate market did 20 years ago. There's a lot of similarities. There's an overriding feeling of optimism, which doesn't just apply to the real estate market. That applies to Dubai in general, to be fair, and it's certainly a market in which it's possible to make very good returns by employing fairly simplistic strategies. You can make considerably higher returns by using more advanced strategies, and those are things that require a degree of education, and that's our job really at Barnes to educate our clients on what suits them. In terms of how it differs, apart from a strategy is having some similarities. I think what you'll find here is that there are a lot of options. On one hand, that's very good. On the other hand, if you find yourself speaking to the wrong person, this can actually put you in a situation where you're going to see diminished returns, smaller returns and possibly, in some cases maybe you won't see the growth that you're expecting. So having an understanding of how this market works is absolutely vital. I think having an understanding of Dubai's vision for the future is crucial, and when we start looking at issues such as immigration and the amount of people that are looking to move here permanently. Effectively, we have a recipe for success, but again, I have to stress that point that you do need to be careful, just as you would with any investment. So we're not going to generalize. In the same way that you wouldn't say that investing in the stock market was safe, it would depend on the asset that you're investing in. So this is really no different. It boils down to education in that regard. Just to pull it back to the stock market and other investments, as well.

James, 10m 36s:

You can have the best strategy on paper, but if we don't have the awareness and knowledge for to execute that properly well, that can lead to disaster as well, Even if it is itself the strategy and principle of the stock market. The strategy and principle of the stock market is sound and I'm sure there's going to be no exception, as we'll get into in just a moment. But listen, thank you for that and thank you for that high level of hope. We've been seeing the best podcast listeners. So I'm curious as well if we were to even niche that down even more. Tax in the UK is a big consideration for property investors, flipping massive, but as a tax situation we've got out here, bearing in mind, of course, neither of us are tax experts, so just high level really.

Daniel, 11m 16s:

In the interest of keeping it fairly simple, income tax is a zero, so if you're a resident here, yeah, UK listeners.

James, 11m 26s:

Uk listeners will be just trying to get their head right up for a quarter of this.

Daniel, 11m 29s:

It's huge, but anyway, yeah, and then you're obviously to. As I said, to keep it simple, the other side of that would be corporation tax, which currently sits at 9%. So it's typically what we see is and this is how the market is maturing now, compared to what it was so five years ago is that what we're starting to see now are families moving here and not just people wanting to invest or come and work here and then return to their home countries on a regular basis. The market now is maturing and it seems to be more about people actually wanting to live here permanently, raise their children here and call to buy or certainly the UAE home. The tax advantages are obviously a considerable part of that. However, if you look at recent studies, what you'll find is that it's actually not the tax advantages that are the most attractive. It's security and quality of life. Those are the two overriding factors. Taxes obviously a significant part, but it isn't the main reason that people look to move.

James, 12m 39s:

Yeah, no, I can totally imagine, having been in Dubai for the time that I have. It's quite starling, really, just how friendly the study is and how much you don't need to think about keeping one eye on your possessions everywhere. Absolutely, you go versus the UK, which, of course listen, there's a lot to be said about the UK as well, but it's definitely not something you take for granted as much as you do out here. Not that you do, you just go and flip and leave your stuff everywhere or anything like that. But there's been times before where I've been out in restaurants and the people I'll be with will say, oh, we'll just leave our bags here and we'll go off and do this thing. I'll be like, no, you can't, you can't just do that. And they're like, no, you can, it's fine, it's Dubai, right, and listen, we're dealing tangibles, we're dealing like measurable things. It's hard to quantify something like that, but all I will say is, anecdotally, I have observed that yeah, it's quite often the case.

Daniel, 13m 32s:

Two days ago it did occur to me purely because somebody else had mentioned this actually a client that I was talking to who hadn't been here before and the conversation was around how people in restaurants had to signify that that was their table they were sat at by leaving their wallet and their phone at the table while they go to the washroom or go up and all the food and that kind of thing. So that's certainly not uncommon. On more than one occasion someone's come and found me and bought my phone back to me where I've left my phone in places. I did have an instance a little while ago where I dropped my wallet in the car park at Dubai Hills Mall and, unlike in the UK, when you register a vehicle here you're issued with a card with a vehicle license plate on. So I returned from the mall to find that my wallet was tucked in the door handle of the car. No way, yeah, the cards had all been shuffled because they'd gone through the cars to find the vehicle registration number, locate my vehicle and tuck my wallet in the door handle. Wow. So that was. That was quite nice.

James, 14m 37s:

It is actually quite hard to believe until you see it, when you're on the ice. And I come from a similar background, I felt exactly the same. But yeah, no, that certainly is one of the upsides from coming to Dubai Lifestyle and what have you. And then just to add to that, I mean you're personally someone who has done that transition. Well, anyway, where I was given what that was and I was going to say, apart from all the things that we talked about, was there any other allures in there or any other benefits that you can identify in the market To moving to Dubai, To properly in Dubai?

Daniel, 15m 6s:

Okay, so, related to property in Dubai, yeah, absolutely so effectively. If we look at the three main ways in which people make money in the property market here in Dubai, it would be, effectively, you would look at just doing you know, the typical UK model of buy to that. So you would buy a property and then you would put that into the rental market. So you would look for a long term tenant to rent that from you for, you know, on a one-year contract. Typically, what you would expect to see there would be somewhere between 5% and 8% return on investment, which until recently, is pretty much what you, you know, see in the UK. If you took that property, it would need to be the right property in the right place. But if you were to take that property and put it into the, say, the short-term holiday market, such as Airbnb, then you would expect to look at somewhere between 8% to 11% a year return on investment.

James, 16m 5s:

That's a crazy yielding property, isn't it yeah?

Daniel, 16m 8s:

absolutely yeah. So you know, once we get past 10%, that's obviously very good. So that's the basic model. On top of that, because there is, there are some very well-established communities here and areas, but they're starting to maybe a little bit aged now there is definitely a growing market now for people buying those properties and refurbishing them to a high standard to bring them up to modern-day standards, and then those properties will either be sold and the profit taken or refinanced at that point, which is obviously an equity release, which is something that people in the UK would be familiar with, and then you would continue to run that, you know, on a sort of, you know, rental basis. So that would be your second option and then probably the one that everybody's going to be least familiar with but has probably heard a lot about is going to be the off-plan market. Okay, so off-plan effectively is you agreeing to purchase a property from a developer before that property has been built and you would make payments towards that development over generally a three-year construction period. What people would typically expect to do is pay for maybe 50% of that property, just to generalize, and then, when the property is ready and it's complete, then you would need to purchase the rest of it. You could either do that through finance. So what a lot of people aren't aware of is that, as a foreign investor, you can actually get a mortgage here for 50% of the value. Okay, so 50% of the value Right? wow, see, yeah, so you would look to purchase the property or you might decide not to keep it and sell the property at that point to another investor or someone who wanted to live in it. The term banded around is end user. It's not the best term, to be honest with you. You know, for some people it's a home, so you know home owners we prefer to use. So those are your sort of three main strategies. The gains that you can make in off-plan are considerable, but they do need to be from the right developer and in the right place, and this is where the gray area actually becomes quite large gray area. And know how right professional, know how, yeah, absolutely yeah. So we specialize in that, in as much as we're very competent in able to identify these projects and three relationships that we have with the developers, you know. Able to secure units for our clients pre-launch and really for a lot of people, that is the keys being able to get the allocation of a unit before it is officially launched, because you will see considerable price increases just during that week when a project does come to the market. So, but this is a very specialized as a niche strategy and, yeah, it's probably not something that you would want to try and do on your own.

James, 19m 19s:

No, absolutely, and I'm really. It's really good to chip in and say that of course isn't it, because we wouldn't want everybody to think that it's well, it's a gall rush and you just come in and throw money out. It's definitely not that.

Daniel, 19m 30s:

It's definitely not that there are. I know there are a lot of people that portray it as that, and all I would say about that is be careful you listen to speak to more than one person. When I came here, I spoke to, in the beginning, 23, 24 different brokerages yeah, before I found one that actually treats me the way that you know they should. To be fair, they all should have treated me this way, but they didn't, because they weren't interested in what was going to work for me. They were interested in what worked for them, and that's the key to it, really. But we don't look for fast money. We focus quite heavily on building lasting relationships with clients and making those people happy, and making the money obviously is a big part of it.

James, 20m 22s:

Come on, man Cool. Thanks for sharing. Well, listen, I'm curious to know. So let's put ourselves the majority of people who are listening to this podcast. They'll be very much retail investors, and what I mean by that is not necessarily professional, and they're coming to this market and they're thinking to themselves okay, I've heard a little bit about Dubai property. It sounds good. Maybe there's a little bit of skepticism there, something along those lines. Yeah, that's what people's typical root to Dubai property look like. Or let's put them. So let's put ourselves in the shoes somebody who wants to emigrate here or buy a home, or potentially by the buy a battle. That let's do. Let's do buy a home first, for somebody wants to have a great.

Daniel, 20m 58s:

So somebody wanted to move here and set up home. Yeah, there's a little bit of work to do. There's obviously a whole visa application process. You know we have people in our network that are very competent at helping you with that and will do the majority of the workload for you. You will need to be here at certain points. You need to be physically present to a few things done and they really it would depend on what that clients needs were. So if I had a family, you're going to want to consider things such as schooling. That's going to be a A big factor in your decision making process as to where you would look to live. If you're coming here with a family by off plan is probably not something that will appeal to you. You don't be living nowhere for the next two, three years, so, yeah, you would certainly have to think about what your priorities were. For a lot of people, that revolves around where they work and where the children go to school. The good news, obviously, is that you can get from one end of the city to the other during the day and 13 minutes at night maybe it's an hour. Transport links are very effective and this is being expanded all the time. I mean, the current metro system that we have is very efficient, but it does only cover the actual core of the city. Where is in future years? It is actually progressing further south, into the desert Some people might call it. But yeah, your decision making process will probably revolve around your place of work and schooling and you would look for, obviously, somewhere to rent, probably in the first instance, why you found your feet. If you were looking to buy that something, we can facilitate for you. But again, with everything else, it's an education process. You know, what I would say is don't rush into anything. Rent something for a while, even if it's in the short term market to see you can find. You know the areas that suit you best, but there are a lot of expat communities here.

James, 22m 55s:

Yeah.

Daniel, 22m 56s:

Paul, really the one that's known the best is Dubai Hills. That has a very large British community there. So there are these places that exist where you will feel more at home than others.

James, 23m 9s:

Let's say that really depends on the individual got you okay, cool, so you can get a loan here as a non resident for a residential property.

Daniel, 23m 18s:

Yeah, so if you are looking to buy as a foreign investor, yeah, your maximum loan to value, so the maximum portion of the property that you can borrow against, would be 50%, right, if you buy a property, you know the cost 400,000 euros yeah, you know you'd be looking at borrowing a maximum of 200,000 euros. Yeah, so you would need, you know, some cash. In that regard, if you were looking to move here permanently, you need to have proof of income. Yeah, that can vary slightly from one bank to another, but typically what they would be looking for is three months of salary being paid into your bank account at least.

James, 24m 1s:

Wow, okay, three months, that's quite lenient then, really isn't it? Yeah, pretty much I mean more is preferable.

Daniel, 24m 8s:

Yeah, and as with much of any money laying in market, you know, the more of a reliable applicant you are, obviously the more opportunities you're going to have open to you. So, but for most people, renting is the way that they would start before committing to that. But absolutely, yeah, in, you know, mortgages are not a problem. Yeah, interest rates are dropping slightly. Last time checked a couple of days ago, I think we were down to about 4.7%.

James, 24m 35s:

Oh yeah.

Daniel, 24m 35s:

So you know we're clear. The other thing to bear in mind is cash in banks. Here the interest that's paid on that tends to be right about 5% in the right bank account. Nice yeah. When's the last time you saw 5% in a UK bank account?

James, 24m 57s:

There we go. Pretty rare, pretty unsurpassed, yeah yeah.

Daniel, 25m 0s:

So, even if you just want to park cash while you take your time to make up your mind where you want to live, yeah, it's still a better option for you.

James, 25m 8s:

Wow yeah, and just to be super clear on this. So when it comes to loan to value for an investment property, it's 50%, and does that differ if it's a residential property?

Daniel, 25m 18s:

So there's no differentiation between mortgages that are used for buy, to let or to leave. Ah, OK, yeah so unlike in the UK, let's say, where your maximum loan to value would be 75%. Here it's based more on are you resident here or not resident here, or you're using it for the purpose of the property matters less Fascinating.

James, 25m 40s:

OK, cool, well, listen, I mean for me that was a really lovely high level synopsis of the market in Dubai. Is it anything else that you feel is relevant to the listeners today on the podcast?

Daniel, 25m 52s:

I mean what I would say to people is it really this business? As much as it's about real estate, it's also about trust.

James, 26m 4s:

Yeah.

Daniel, 26m 4s:

OK, and what I would say is anybody that's looking to invest here should do their due diligence on who they're investing their money with. There have been cases in the past, obviously, where things haven't gone to plan for people. Yeah, that tends to be a case of people making rash decisions, jumping into things that they like to regret, as with any investment, right. But the lot of the short of it, I think, is that if you're speaking to the right person, they will have your best interest at heart. They should be, first and foremost, looking to build a relationship with you. What should matter to you the most is that they have an interest in what your outcome should be. So the broker that I dealt with last year her main concern was you know what's your end goal, you know why are you doing this? Ok, and then reverse engineering that to get to a starting point that would enable these investments to fall into place and to make that end goal possible. So I think if you're not speaking to somebody that thinks in that way, that should be a red flag to you. You should really only be speaking to people that are keen to serve you, and if your goal is to make money, obviously your audiences are, you know, interested in making money. So if you're speaking to someone and it's not made abundantly clear a strategy of how you can do that, then I think you should be wary. Slightly different for us at Barnes, you know we have a history of serving high net worth individuals and we're at 145 offices now globally. So we do have a very good track record and a good history of serving those people in that way, and you should look for somebody that's, you know, looking to serve you in a similar way and deliver the same product for you. At the end of the day, you know, this isn't about. It's not so much about money. It's about the amount of work that's gone into you producing this surplus that you can then invest. Ok, so what we're talking about really is people's hard work that's being invested. It's less about pound signs. It's more about, you know, treating that with respect and finding a way that we can make that work for you.

James, 28m 30s:

That's cool. Thank you for that, danny. You know what One thing actually. That was such a beautiful note to round off on, and it would have been really nice to end it there. But a brilliant question popped into my head and I'm like, no, this is too good to not put this in the podcast. Ok, here is a very common issue that dentists in the UK have. So everybody wants to manage their tax position through their limited company, or they'll want to keep it to around maybe the 100K mark, so they'll be managing their tax positions because of that, and what often happens is they are just of this big pile of cash sat in their limited company with me. Yeah, now, obviously, if they take that and they put it into another limited company, there's going to be a tax problem with that, right? Or there's going to be a tax bill associated with that. So I'm wondering this is why they keep it in the limited company as much as they can, and then they can try to get it out with a pension, eis, seis, something along those lines, but then you can't get your damn money half the time, right? Yeah, exactly. So Then this in that position, let's say they had some spare capital and they were potentially thinking investing in property in Dubai. How does that process look to actually get the money out of the limited company and bring it over here?

Daniel, 29m 35s:

Yeah, okay, so obviously I'm not a tax expert. Yeah, of course, good to say we do work closely with people that are tax experts that would advise you on the very best way, because it's not just as simple as moving it from a limited company to another one. Yeah, it's far more convoluted than that and you do need somebody that will manage that diligently for you and put a process in place. What I will say is that I think it's a fairly common strategy for people to establish a company here in the UAE and then charge certain types of fees to their UK companies, so I don't think that would be groundbreaking news to anybody. The company here may have certain practices that it carries out that benefit the UK company. I'm going to have to be very careful about what I say about it because I don't want anybody to take that. As you know, this is a proven strategy or this is the way you do it. Yeah, what I will say is that, in the same way that we're talking about, you know protecting your money by speaking to people that know about these things. That's going to be absolutely critical for you or for your audience to speak to someone that can advise them on a case-by-case basis and obviously, with what we've just seen in the budget, there's now some changes being made to domiciliary situations and where you're resident and that kind of thing. So, as is often the case with the tax situation in the UK and here as well, to be fair, things do change and you need to evaluate those on a case-by-case basis with someone who's got their finger on the pulse and understands what's going to work for you. We can put you in touch with those people. That's not a problem, yeah, but let's just say there are considerable advantages.

James, 31m 30s:

Okay, yeah, good right, and that's that's it.

Daniel, 31m 33s:

Yeah, it's all exactly. You know, everything's structured exactly the way it should be. We wouldn't advise that anybody, you know. Look at doing something that was going to potentially cause them an issue or their company an issue. But yeah, if anyone wants to get in touch with me, then I'm happy to put them in the right direction.

James, 31m 51s:

Cool Send them to our people that know best. Yeah, no, that's bought on the money you know. Even to just say that there's advantages to that versus people feeling like they're trapped, I said this money is trapped in their limited company, which is a lot of dentists.

Daniel, 32m 5s:

That's a very good way to describe it. In actual fact, yeah, yeah, very good way to describe it. It does require somebody who really knows what they're doing. Cool, yeah.

James, 32m 16s:

Good stuff. Well, danny, listen. Thank you so much for what you're doing today. It's put it there Are my friends first of many podcasts?

Daniel, 32m 21s:

Absolutely, I hope so. Yeah, I think we can. We can certainly help people a lot and and add value, I think. So that'll be good.

James, 32m 29s:

Sure man Nickel forward. Yeah Well, danny, if anybody listened to the podcast wants to get in touch with you, how would they be backed?

Daniel, 32m 33s:

off doing that? Absolutely, yeah, so I'm at Barnes International in our Dubai office. What I'll do is maybe, if you're able to post a link at the end, or I can ask our media department to post my details on the end. Yeah, you're very welcome to reach out either by telephone or WhatsApp. You will know by now that Dubai lives and breathes and functions daily on WhatsApp.

James, 32m 58s:

WhatsApp, apart from the calls, there are no, no calls. There are no. No, we're not going to get into that.

Daniel, 33m 4s:

Yeah, we're not going to get into why the calls don't work, but yeah, phone call, email or WhatsApp, absolutely find no problem at all. Good stuff, yeah.

James, 33m 12s:

Danny, thank you so much for your time today. I'm already looking forward to having you back on the podcast for another episode, so we'll do that very soon, yeah.

Daniel, 33m 19s:

And we'll introduce some more people as well that can shed light on different aspects of it for you and your audience and add value and educate people.

James, 33m 29s:

Nice one, exciting stuff, my friend. All right, cool. Well, listen as I say. Thank you so much, danny. I'm looking forward to having you back on the podcast very, very soon. Thank you, james, in a bit. Thank you, bye.