Dr. James, 7s:

Fans of the Dentistry Invest podcast. If you feel like there was one particular episode in the back catalogue in the anthology of Dentistry Invest podcast episodes that really, really really was massively valuable to you, feel free to share that with a fellow dental colleague who is in a similar position, so their understanding of finance can be elevated and they can hit the next level of financial success in their life. Also, as well as that, if you could take two seconds to rate and review this podcast, it would mean the world. To me, what that would mean is that it drives this podcast further in terms of reach so that more dentists across the world can be able to benefit from the knowledge contained therein. Welcome, welcome to the Dentists who Invest podcast. Hey team, welcome back everybody to the Dentists who Invest invest podcast. This is a podcast that I did such a long time ago and it's more than due, more than overdue, that we need a refresher on it, because things have changed so much in the backgrounds with how tax is well, how tax is designed, which is, with how it's you know what, how it affects us as dentists in the UK that we need a refresher, we need an update. So we're here today to talk about the age-old debate, the age-old argument limited company versus sole trader. And I've got my main man, david Hossain, here in front of us today, who is going to be able to articulate very clearly his thoughts on the matter, to get us dentist up to speed. Thanks, james, how are you today?

David, 1m 38s:

very good. Thank you very much, you're all right yeah, wonderful mate hanging in there.

Dr. James, 1m 42s:

Hanging in there, in fact. What am I talking about? I'm thriving. I'm getting absolutely loads done these days which is flipping great, a few big plans coming to fruition which I'm really looking forward to. So, david, there'll be people who are listening to this podcast. Some will know who you are and some are yet to meet you, so maybe it might be nice to do a little bit of an intro so that people get to know you.

David, 1m 59s:

Basically, yeah, thanks. So we're a firm of dental accountants and we do two main things Firstly, as any accountant should, do your compliance work, so making sure you tick all your boxes, have you done your tax returns, have you met your filing deadlines, and so on. The second kind of strand of what we do is working a bit closer with our clients, so we like to understand the journey that each of our clients is on, what their personal circumstances look like, where are they in meeting their objectives and what do they look like. So what's the plan for the next five years? A lot of our clients are quite entrepreneurial, so they're either buying a practice, setting up a practice, buying properties and investments, or have already got established businesses and are looking at grooming those for sale. So how we like to work is I like to know everyone's circumstances and what they've got on the horizon, and then we keep in touch and checking on things that they need to plan and put in place for what the events are coming down the road, I suppose.

Dr. James, 3m 10s:

Top stuff, cool. Well, let's jump straight in with the SoulTrader Limited Company podcast. So, david, once upon a time well, actually do you know what? I don't know why I said that. I almost said once upon a time it was really clear cut, but it's never been really clear cut at all. But now the boundaries have slightly shifted, haven't they? So maybe if you'd just like to cover from a high level sole trader versus limited company how that works, naturally, we all start out as sole traders and then we have to make the decision to become a limited company or not. Are you with me? So maybe it might be nice if we started from a sole trader how that looks and then maybe explore around about when do we start thinking about the limited company?

David, 3m 49s:

yeah, that's absolutely. We've got some slides. Would you be able to?

Dr. James, 3m 53s:

yes, I'll share those just now. So there'll be two types of people who are listening to this. There'll be people who are listening to the audio recording on the podcast and there'll be people who are watching the video on the facebook group. So we will cater to both with our explanations. It's important to mention.

David, 4m 9s:

Yeah thanks, jim. So, um, the slide does say associates, was. You know, what we say is also relevant to principles, um, that said, it's easier to become a company and not become a company as an associate, whereas a principal, you've often got contracts and bigger assets to move around. So, but the the rates and numbers apply to both situations. So if we could have the first slide, please, sure, okay. So since July 2006, dental associates have been able to trade as a limited company, and the main reason that you'd think about doing something like that is it allows you to control the level of income you are taxed on. So that's the big difference between as a self-employed dentist, you are taxed on all of your income and profits, regardless of whether you spend them or not, whereas with a company, you've got a good level of control over what you are taxed on, because you can control what you draw from the company, which is then taxed as dividends. So, as a general rule, the more you can leave in, the better things will be. That said, if you are in the NHS, whilst you can set up a company, you won't then be able to superannuate your earnings, because that's just not an option available to associates, unfortunately. Principals can, but associates can't, so that's important to make clear. Available to associates, unfortunately. And principals can, but associates can't, so that's that's important to make clear as well. Good stuff, yes. So how does it work? So in the uk we've got different tax bands. So whether you fall into basic rate band, higher rate band, additional rate band, you'll be taxed at 20, 40, 45. However, there is a bit of a quirk that once you go over 100 000 of profits, you start to lose your personal allowance and that means that that chunk after 100 000 is taxed at 60 because it's taxed first at 40 and then there's a clawback of the personal allowance. This means that, as you've got in the box there, if your taxable profit is £110,000, that £10,000 has a tax bill of £6,000 on it. So little things like that just make you think well, if we had more control over how we're taxed. It gives you more flexibility to choose the rate of tax you want to pay, and certainly people want to avoid 60% 100%, they do Cool. And, in addition to that, so young families, you know, clients who've got kids at nursery and so on. You are able to get £500 every three months, up to £2,000 a year for each of your child, to help with the cost of that childcare. However, if your adjusted net income goes over £100,000 for either yourself or your partner, you don't get that benefit and that's just taken away from you. It doesn't matter if you both earn £999,000. It's when one of you go over. So again, having the company and the option to adjust that can allow you to benefit from things like free childcare, which is quite helpful for small families.

Dr. James, 7m 19s:

And, just to be super clear, who they're receiving that from? Is the government? From the government? Yeah, yes, awesome, okay. So another incentive to stay under 100K of personal tax. Income Of personal tax, yes, correct.

David, 7m 35s:

Okay. So then next a bit about the procedures. So if it is right for you, first thing you've got to do is choose a name. That can be anything Dr James Martin Limited. If you do want the name the word dental in there you have to write to the GDC, give them your GDC number, tell them why you want it. They will give you a letter which approves the use of the word dental in there. You have to write to the GDC, give them your GDC number, tell them why you want it. They will give you a letter which approves the use of the word dental because it is a protected term. That's then given to the company's house. They will release the name that you've requested, subject to somebody else not having it. That gets you your company name and articles Beyond that. We then like to think about well, what should the share structure be of that company? It is possible to involve your partner. So if you've got a spouse, say, who's got a lower income than you and you want to shift some of your income over to them, use their lower rate tax band. That's also possible. At the point you set the company up, it can bring the tax burden down further when assessing. Is it right for you? We've got to consider a lot of different taxes income tax, dividend taxes, national insurance and corporation tax. The reason we wanted to do this podcast is it used to be much more clearer, but since the announcement in November, corporation tax has gone up. We do need to look at it again, and that's hopefully what we'll do today.

Dr. James, 8m 59s:

Awesome. Okay, let me get this next slide up.

David, 9m 4s:

So that's the kind of table of the taxes on each side. So, as self-employed, you'll pay income tax, 20%, 40%, 45%, and then national insurance, 9.73%, and then class 2, 3.45% a week. With a company, the first 50,000 is taxed at 19% and that's the thing that's changed this year. So from April, profits above 19% are taxed at a marginal rate of 26.5%. So your actual corporation tax rate is a blend of those two figures. Beyond that, then, when you draw money out, you're then taxed on dividends at 8.75% for your basic rate, band 33.75% for a higher rate, and additional is 39, 39.35. You're going to blend those together for your calculation. Um, if we look at the next slide, well, they um, the next slide is just telling the assumptions before you show. We show you that the graph how it used to look. So this graph, the next graph, will assume that you've drawn all the money. Now, a lot of the planning that we do for should use a company is based around the client being financially motivated to save um to meet their objectives. That could be saving for a deposit for practice or saving to invest in properties, shares and so on. So, um, but we have to give advice on if you were to draw all the money. This is what it looks like. That's that first line. There it's possible to extend the positive range. As we said before. If you get the spouse involved and they've got a low rate of tax, it helps increase the savings. You can also do things like make pension payments and buy an electric car. Those are additional tax savings you can put through a company. The car tax relief on electric cars isn't available. So, um, self-employed people, so that's, that's unique to having a company and it's it's also. You have to factor that in when you do your numbers. But anyway, oh interesting, oh, it's interesting, that's interesting, okay, cool yes, so this is how it used to look prior to april and you can see the uh, the line that's above the horizon. So up to 131,000,. It was very clear that if you took all the money out, you're still going to be saving tax. That tax saving varies up to 2,000, up to 4,000. If you've got the spouse, add on an extra 25% to 30% of the saving, because obviously you've got that saving there as well. There does come a point where, if you you take all the money, you were worse off and that was before april. Now we've got the new rates and what's changed since then. If you go to the uh, the next slide, sure?

Dr. James, 11m 48s:

so, and we'll do that absolutely in two seconds, so just for the benefit of those people who are listening. Uh, the graph that we can see up here in front of us. It displays a line which indicates whether or not you're better off withdrawing all of your wealth from a company, and it compares and contrasts if you're limited or if you're self-employed. So what we mean by that is a sole trader or associate right, david, yeah, yes, sorry.

David, 12m 15s:

I forgot, people are listening as well.

Dr. James, 12m 16s:

No, no, no, it's cool, it's cool and this graph is really helpful. So, obviously, we're working totally under the assumption that you're withdrawing all the money straight out of the limited company, which very many people are to this level, but basically, you're only actually better off Well, actually, beg your pardon you become better off to remain self-employed or to remain a sole trader when we get over the 131k mark, but prior to that point, apart from a very, very, very early phase up to the first 5,000, it looks like you're better off to go limited, but it's, of course, important to remember that these are the old rules prior to, uh, april 2023. Yes, I nailed that, david. Yes, absolutely that stuff. Okay, let's move on to the next one yeah, so since?

David, 13m 11s:

um, well, in november, obviously, the government announced the budget and changes, and what's happened since then? So, from april, the tax-free dividend allowance, which used to be two thousand pound, is now only one thousand. Um, national insurance and dividend taxes have gone up by one percent. The the big thing, though, that people are getting hit with now is that increase in corporation tax. Where it used to be 19, whereas you've got your profits above 50 000000, the tax is at 26.5%. That's a 7.5% real tax charge that people are incurring now. So what does that mean? So you process all that through to the calculators and so on, and now the graph looks like this. If you could see the next slide, so on. Here I've done two lines. The blue one, which is a continuation of the orange one, is if you were to still draw all your money out, it starts to go down a lot sooner, and more prominent as well. So that extra 7.5% if you're drawing all the money out, there's a potential argument, subject to, obviously, pensions and car planning that, um, you need to look at that again. However, the people who are still winning are the people who are only drawing minimum amounts and saving money in the in the company and that's the, the orange line, and that illustrates the tax saved.

Dr. James, 14m 37s:

If you're only drawing 50 000, which some of our clients like to do interesting, right and just for the benefit of those listening, the the orange line which displays how much tax you're saving whenever you're a limited company. This orange line, you know it's. It's a little curvy and wavy in some parts but it's pretty much consistently from the bottom left of the graph to the top right, meaning that there is a consistent saving the higher your earnings are, providing that you're only withdrawing 50k from your limited company for your personal spending. Is that? Is that? Is that a buyback?

David, 15m 17s:

yeah, absolutely yeah, it's the one, one way. The savings keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger not everyone can live on 50k, we know except that. But somewhere between the 50 and 100 mark is uh, it's gonna give you a saving.

Dr. James, 15m 30s:

So that's cool, so it makes it still makes total sense, despite the changes for those who save money in the company. Yes, yeah yes, 100, and then the other, the blue line. Uh, if you draw all of the money outside of the company, uh, it makes more sense for you to be limited until about the 85k mark.

David, 15m 53s:

It looks like then a little blip down and it comes back up again and goes down again.

Dr. James, 15m 59s:

Yes, and then there's a small dip around the 100K mark and then actually if you're spending around 120, 130, it begins to make sense for you to become limited again. But then after the 135K or so mark, then actually it makes more sense for you to remain sole trader if you're drawing all of the money from your company, if you're drawing the money out past that level yes, and you've not got a spouse involved and you've not done any other planning with the car.

David, 16m 33s:

So it's a bit more nuanced, but we're trying to simplify for people.

Dr. James, 16m 36s:

So yeah, 100, and there'll be lots of this is. This is the one thing that struck me about limited company versus sole trader. At the very start, whenever I was just grasping this stuff, I thought it was just really black and white. I was like, above this number, it makes sense. Below this number, it doesn't something like that. Right, but it's actually not. There's a few caveats to it. So what? What we've done right now, what you've done, david, on this graph, is made it dead simple, but we haven't actually chucked on top all of these other considerations that may change it on an individual basis, which is why I suppose it's helpful to have this conversation with your accountant. Yes, absolutely. Talk it through with your accountant Cool. All right on to the next slide.

David, 17m 19s:

Yeah, absolutely. Talk it through with your accountant. Cool, all right On to the next slide. Yeah, the next slide just puts that into a tabular format. So if you wanted to see the exact figures, you can see that there. So if you start at 100,000, so if you've got profits of 100,000, you're only taking out 50, you're saving 6,300 in addition to the cash that's in the company. So that's certainly worth thinking about when that figure gets higher and higher. So at 150, it's a net saving of 13,000 plus the cash that's in the company. So it was just for people to see. If you couldn't read the graph that was.

Dr. James, 17m 52s:

That was my last slide got you and you know one thing that used to confuse me about this stuff a lot. It is important. If I've understood this correctly, this is your overall tax saving across you and your company, right?

David, 18m 4s:

Yes Company. Plus you all taxes, that's the net effect.

Dr. James, 18m 8s:

Yeah, amazing. Yeah. So the net effect, whereas I just thought that this, what I used to think back in the day was until I had that articulated to me by someone was I used to think that this was just the personal tax saving that I made or the personal loss in tax that I made, as in that was that affected my money outside of the company and within the company, something else was happening, right. I didn't actually realize like it was. It was net overall, so it is important to mention that. Real quick guys. I've put together a special report for dentists entitled the seven costly and potentially disastrous mistakes that dentists make whenever it comes to their finances. Most of the time, dentists are going through these issues and they don't even necessarily realize that they're happening until they have their eyes opened, and that is the purpose of this report. You can go ahead and receive your free report by heading on over to wwwdenisoninvestcom forward slash podcast report or alternatively, you can download it using the link in the description. This report details these seven most common issues. However, most importantly, it also shows you how to fix them. I'm Really looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

David, 19m 26s:

Yeah, absolutely. As I said, we're trying to simplify it. We've got a very complicated spreadsheet that does 20 rows and gives you each one, but just trying to make it clear, it's total tax savings there.

Dr. James, 19m 37s:

Because dividends are after corporation tax right, which was another thing that I needed to learn to grasp this stuff, and there'll be people listening to this podcast and watching this video who are at all levels of their understanding of tax, so it is important to say that stuff out loud. Yes, absolutely Okay, cool. Next slide.

David, 19m 58s:

Yeah, there is again. So other considerations. You know there's no kind of one answer fits all. You've got to talk to your accountant. But other things to think about are if you've got multiple businesses, um, that associated companies rule comes in. So the 250,000 is split over how many companies you've got if they are associated. So if you own them, you direct the shareholders of them. You've got to look at all companies together and chances are you'll be paying more at 25 becomes more likely. Next point is what a lot of people are doing now is thinking well, look, if I'm going to pay, pay 26.5 on a big chunk of my company's profits, should I accelerate some pension contributions? And that? Um is a bit of tax money you can do now. You've still got time to do that. Obviously, tax year ends, uh, 30th of march. Corporation tax, um tax relief and cars that's another tax benefit that's unique to the company. Companies can provide you with an electric car and as long as it's new, you'll get a 26.5 saving on the full value of the car if you're buying it. If you're leasing it, it's on the lease payments. But if you're buying it and the company owns the car, um, that might be 50 000 pound.5% will come off your corporation tax bill. That's quite good. A lot of people are doing that and I say that's not available if you're a sole trader. It's just for companies.

Dr. James, 21m 28s:

We should do a separate podcast on that at some point, you know, and explain that in more detail. Something we can think about?

David, 21m 35s:

Yeah, sure can do. Anyway, yeah, and then, as I I said before, you can also involve your spouse. Um, I don't like to go over 25 because there are legislation and restrictions on income shifting, but at 25 you're pretty much safe. It's just it has to be done in the right way, as a gift of, as a gift of income. Um, not on not ascribing for shares and incorporation, but that's a bit of a jargon that us accountants need to deal with. It's not too important. However, another thing that is important is maternity pay. So if you are an NHS dentist and you're happy to lose the superannuation because your plans are such that your savings are going to be a replacement for the superannuation, if you are intending, um, or it's possible that you know kids could be on the horizon, I'd maybe wait until that's happened, because you don't get as generous maternity pay. Um, if you've gone as a company, you've got to lose most of it. So that's important to do as well. Just to make sure you've thought that through worth noting. Yeah, definitely worth and, as I say, take advice, talk to your accountant. If um anyone's got any questions after that, more than happy to get in touch and see contact details there.

Dr. James, 22m 52s:

So cool, great stuff, great stuff, great stuff, great stuff. Okay, let's just jump out of the presentation. Actually, a few more things that I'd like to ask as well. Is there anywhere that you can recommend any calculators that we can use online, in which we can input our information and figure out where we'll be roughly or what we can expect in terms of tax?

David, 23m 14s:

yeah, you absolutely can. Um, the government's got um self-assessment calculators so that will give you the income tax if you stay a sole trader. If you wanted to um compared to a company, there is a website I found. Actually it's not a government one, they don't. They're not that helpful. Unfortunately they won't give you um, but it's employed and self-employedcouk. That's quite a good um calculator and you just put, put your figures in, go to accounts. What was my last taxable profit? Put that in. It'll tell you. But what it won't tell you is, by the way, if I want to save some money in the company, that's a bit more. The calculator can't do that extra step um, unfortunately it is a bit of a manual task. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. James, 23m 57s:

What about software that charts our cash flow? Anything you can recommend in that front is that that's what zero does, right?

David, 24m 6s:

well, zero can do your cash flow, but you have to train it and feed it assumptions um, how do I say this? So zero is only as good as the information that comes into it. Okay, and it's quite rare that I would recommend our clients to do their own bookkeeping unless they've got sufficient time and leisure to do it. And then the point is, what benefit will it give you? A lot of our clients, in fact, the thing that tells them their cash flow is they look at the bank account and they ask us how much is my tax this year? And they know that they've adjusted for that. That's on a very simple level. Obviously, I appreciate people have got investments and so on that they might need beyond that point, zero won't give it to you. Obviously, I appreciate people have got investments and so on that they might need. Beyond that, zero won't give it to you. You've got to pick up the phone and talk to your accountant. It's a conversation.

Dr. James, 24m 54s:

Got you. Okay, cool, 100%, David. Obviously absolutely loads to take on board there today, which is great. Absolutely loads of information, the more the better. Is there anything that you'd like to say on top that you feel might be relevant to anybody who's listening? Or maybe we've very neatly created something there that summarizes everything?

David, 25m 15s:

Yeah, well, I think that your accounts and tax should be part of your financial plan. So I think people should have a financial plan, and that can be I'm going to stay as I am and grow some cash savings. That can be no, I'm going to look at investing in things, and that can be shares, that can be a practice, that can be a squat. And what's my retirement plan? So I think people should have a financial plan. As accountants, we can't give you financial advice on investments because we're not insured and regulated to do that, but talk to your accountant about your numbers and make sure you understand. Well, you know how much do I need to spend? What am I going for the outgoings? Do I really need to draw it all? If not, if I had a company, the effect would be this, and that extra cash gives me options to do this, and over 10 years it will allow me to do this. So it's important to talk to your accountant 100% Cool, all right.

Dr. James, 26m 9s:

Well, david, I know that we talked just beforehand, just before we hit record, and you mentioned that you'd made a PDF for dentists. What's the name of that PDF?

David, 26m 17s:

Yeah, so Ways to Save Tax as a Dentist, so we don't get involved in any schemes at all. This is just things that are approved um guidance. So investing in tax efficient vcts, claiming all the allowances that you've got available to you and it's it's a pdf where we can put that out to people to download. I think that's pretty charged, amazing.

Dr. James, 26m 40s:

So, yeah, awesome, and basically it just gives a breakdown of every single method that a dentist can use to to legally reduce their tax bill, to manage their tax and be tax efficient. Is the terminology right? Absolutely love that. Okay, and how are best? How are people best going about acquiring that?

David, 26m 59s:

contacting yourself yeah, if that's uh, you can drop me an email. I can also send it to yourself to distribute to people if they contact you as well.

Dr. James, 27m 8s:

Sure, okay, cool. So David Hossain available on the group. That's Hossain H-O-S-S-E-I-N. And then what's your best email David.

David, 27m 17s:

That's david at ortuuk.

Dr. James, 27m 22s:

Top stuff. David, thank you so much for your time today. Super clear, super punchy, super impactful, concise summary of what we can expect in terms of tax as dentists and how we can make that decision about sole trader or limited company, which is really, really, really valuable. Thank you once again for coming along and we'll get you back on the Dentistry Invest podcast very soon. Thanks, James. Thank you very much. If you enjoyed this podcast, please hit, follow or subscribe so you can stay up to date with information on new podcasts which are released weekly. Please also feel free to leave a positive review so others can learn about this podcast and benefit from it. I would also encourage any fans of the podcast to sign up to the free Facebook community from which the podcast originated. Please search Dentists who Invest on Facebook and hit join to become part of a community of thousands of other dentists interested in improving their finances, wellbeing and investing knowledge. Looking forward to seeing you on there.