Dr. James, 9s:

This is podcast I should have done like 50 million years ago, but I'm going to get around to it today. We're here to talk about gold, and I have done podcasts before on the different ways that one can obtain exposure to the gold market. But we're here today to talk about the feasibility of gold as an investment and all the things surrounding that, with return in face. Mr John Doyle, how are you, john?

Jon, 30s:

I'm pretty good. Thanks, mate. Yeah, pretty good. Yeah, last training.

Dr. James, 34s:

Last training. Well, that's what we like to hear. Anything fresh since you were last on.

Jon, 39s:

Well, the big news is my eldest daughter's just finished her GCSEs and she feels like they've gone pretty well, so can't complain with that Successfully through high school onto college.

Dr. James, 54s:

Yeah, hey, man can't complain with that successfully through high school, onto college. Yeah, hey, man, that's what being a parent is about, you know, and you parents get so much fulfillment for you from your kids. I'm wondering, I'm looking forward to that man there's. There's obviously a lot of pleasure, uh, and and happiness to be had there, but I can't actually say I fully relate at this stage because there is no james jr but one mate. I'm looking forward to it.

Jon, 1m 13s:

That's a terrifying thought.

Dr. James, 1m 16s:

Multiple James Juniors. What a great thing for the world. I'm with you, john, I agree. Anyway, back to the subject matter, gold, gold and its feasibility as an investment, and this was very much the idea from this podcast is very much generated from a conversation we were having recently on the topic of gold and something interesting that you come across recently, john, I'll let. I'll let you share, uh, because it was your experience and it'll be best off coming from yourself. Well, there's a couple of gold stories that are going my way recently.

Jon, 1m 50s:

Right thing boom one of them is is uh, my parents have just come back from canada and they've done this amazing trip around canada seeing my mom's sister for you know who's 70 now but there was a gold rush in canada and they were telling me all the stories about the gold rush in canada. Um, and the two stories that really stood out for them around the gold rush in canada was the person who set up a business selling shovels. I mean, that's the oldest story going, isn't it? There's a gold rush, sell shovels to the people digging for gold, right. But the other one is there's this really difficult pass that was really difficult to survive and yet you couldn't take food and supplies. It was narrow, windy. It's between Canada and Alaska, difficult to survive and yet you couldn't take food and supplies. It was narrow, windy. It's in a, you know, between Canada and Alaska. And um, this, this one lady, she must have been from Wigan because she set up a business selling pies, right, and I'm from Lancashire no share to Wigan, only love for Wigan right yeah, I, I love a Wigan pie. I'm from Lancashire, I lived there more than half of my life, but she set up this business selling pies to the people on the gold rush and it then became a national business and it's still going today, this pie business in Canada. So there's one goal story, like my parents coming back and having this catch-up and telling me all about the gold rush. And then the other one was a client recently sent me a excerpt from a book talking about gold and talking about gold as an investment, and it led me into doing a bit of research for this client and also a bit of a deeper dive into some of the numbers and the thinking around gold as an investment, because it's, it's something that you, you know. In the investment world you find people who we call them gold bugs. They just absolutely fascinated with gold, and then you get those who are very, very, uh, suspicious of it as an investment opportunity.

Dr. James, 3m 44s:

Um, so, yeah, I thought what a what a great thing for us to talk about today totally, and I see people from time to time pop up on the group with the query should I buy gold, is it a good investment, etc. Etc. And it really depends on someone's goals is a big thing, um, because, let's say, culturally, uh, that's just something that you want some exposure to. Well, it's less about focusing out and out on returns, because gold is not necessarily known for that and you may wish to gain some exposure anyway. So I guess it's just important to say here today, john, that we're not guiding anybody any one particular way. We're just illuminating the path and saying, hey, here's some things that you guys should know yeah, a hundred percent.

Jon, 4m 30s:

And and I think one of the interesting plays to start with this is the debate of is gold actually an investment? Yeah, I'll just let that sit. Is gold actually an investment? Now, that might seem like a really stupid question to ask, because people buy it all the time in the hope that it's going to go up in value, but one of the sort of fundamental questions we have as investment managers or people looking to make investments is what is an investment in our opinion? What is it we're looking for when we're going to put our money into an investment, whether that's a bond or a property or a company or shares? And for a lot of investment managers and this is very much where I would sit is an investment is the purchase of a future income stream, any kind of traditional investment stocks and shares, government bonds, property, whether it's commercial or residential. What we're essentially doing is buying the right to a future income stream, whether that's buying Apple shares and getting a share of all the profits they make when they bring out the iPhone AI 16, 17, or whatever number we are on the iPhones now, whether that's lending money to the government to fund the next round of infrastructure products, projects, or that's a property that we're looking to buy and the rent that we're going to get from it, and then we can make a decision about what value we place on this investment. We know the income stream or we have an idea of what we think the income stream is going to be, and we then ask ourselves how much are we willing to pay to have that future income stream? It's a really common definition, and where we then come to gold, we then run into a problem because with gold, we have no future income stream. There's people who sit on this side of the the street who are saying well, when we're investing, we're buying a future income stream. That's where gold falls down for them. Other people say, ah, there's more going on with gold got supply, we've got demand, we've got fear, we've got all sorts of other things that go. You know, maybe there's a different definition, but that that's where a lot of the debate starts is actually, what is it and how do we value it? Is it an income? Is it investment, sorry or is it something different?

Dr. James, 7m 7s:

yeah, very true, very true. And we got to remember that, with paper assets, for example, that there is dividends thrown off by stocks, for example, and there is premiums on bonds, there's returns that you get on bonds every single year. But gold isn't like that, unless we buy gold stocks, which is an indirect way of having some exposure. But we're not, by the way, we're not supposed to do way we're not supposed to do that.

Jon, 7m 32s:

We're not supposed to do that.

Dr. James, 7m 33s:

There's downsides to that as well, but we're just throwing it out there.

Jon, 7m 37s:

With the gold stock, you're generally buying the mining company, so you're buying their ability and the hope that they'll find gold and they'll sell that gold. So it's again, it's that income that you'll buy, okay, that you're buying Okay. Now there are other reasons why, historically, humans have loved gold. One of those reasons is it's very, very shiny. You know, for 10,000 plus years, humans and whatever came before us uh has had a fascination with this shiny, hard but malleable, you know, uh, metal that we can turn into jewelry and all sorts of things. That goes back to the inkers and beyond. Um, so there is a real deep history of gold being something that's been exchanged for goods and services. Um, one of the other things that you know I certainly come across a lot is people liking gold because it survives. Um, you know it's easy to move across borders and if we think about diaspora, uh, communities who've maybe had to move across borders, uh, you know, fleeing risk or those sort of things, gold's almost like that feeling of I can set myself up again, and my favorite ever story I've come across on gold and that feeling that people have is a fund manager that I was speaking to a number of years ago who had a client who had 3 million quid worth of gold in a locker in an airport in Switzerland.

Dr. James, 9m 11s:

Surely, surely that's the sort of stuff we don't tell people. You know what I mean. You keep that to yourselves, don't we? I guess this guy knew the the details as well, but maybe he needed to know but I'm imagining it's not any old locker okay, a locker, some sort of security vaults that they have in switzerland.

Jon, 9m 31s:

But you can imagine that sort of fear of um, you know, let's say, for example, someone who's um, you know, russian or ukrainian, who's had to flee the country. Go via a swiss airport, you pick up your bag of gold, boom, you're in panama and you can set yourself up in life again. Whatever the movements might be, there is definitely this feeling with gold that it's about security, and I think that's where, when we come into, where people are interested in gold, um, this is where a lot of the narrative reasons for maybe holding gold may come from. It's a. When fear about currency or fear about risk increases, then the value of gold also increases.

Dr. James, 10m 22s:

Fear and greed right.

Jon, 10m 24s:

Yeah, fear and greed. What was interesting about this information the client sent me across is it was like a chart of gold returns in different currencies. And when we're looking at a chart like that, my instinct is always look at the US, because all the other currencies kind of move in relation to the US. It's kind of the world's reserve currency. But if you looked at the UK section, there was a couple of moments where the UK really underperformed on the rest of the currencies. Just thinking about this, this was sort of a 2003 to current sort of period chart. What years do you think that maybe the UK in particular had underperformed or outperformed other currencies? When it comes to the gold return, you would have expected.

Dr. James, 11m 23s:

Brexit for a start. So the price of gold is going to go crazy in pounds around about the Brexit time, but it's not actually doing anything versus the dollar. So it wasn't the strength in the gold, it was the weakness in the pounds that's being reflected on the charts.

Jon, 11m 38s:

Boom, yeah, absolutely. So the chart shows that gold did about 30% 2016, if you're pricing it in pounds, but if you're pricing in dollars, it only did 9%. Okay.

Dr. James, 11m 54s:

And can I just, can I just touch on that for literally 20 seconds? Right, it's. It's not doing investing justice when people come to you and say like, oh, you can't invest in stocks, they're volatile, or you can't invest in this, it's x, y and z. It's volatile. And I'm not saying every volatile investment is good, that's for sure. But what I am saying is it's worth considering that sometimes the fluctuations in price that you see on the charts are actually related to the underlying currency. Everybody uses uses currency as their measuring stick, but the measuring stick that you're using is actually fluctuating in dimensions all of the time. Are you with me? We act like cash is fixed, is flipping not fixed? It's not.

Jon, 12m 39s:

Yeah, it's a really interesting one because we almost have to make a decision as individual investors. Which currencies matter to me Now, as a UK investor with very little intention of leaving the country on a permanent basis, the pound really matters to me in how I value my investments because it's how I measure my own ability to purchase goods and services. But also, as an investor, the dollar really matters to me because it's the world's reserve currency. So if the dollar strengthens against the pound and everything becomes, my iPhone becomes more expensive to buy, you know, and buying in all these things that are priced in dollars becomes more difficult. So as a UK investor, I want to have exposure to global currencies and we do that our our firm through buying companies in these other countries. You know you own facebook shares or apple shares, nvidia shares in dollars and you you kind of get some, some benefit there, um, but it's very natural to kind of think about your investments in the currency that you default to. You know, I've even known people who are. I had one client years ago who was an Australian. He's moved back now but he worked in foreign exchange, so it's actually his day job was to trade for investment banks and everything he did he priced to the us dollars in his head. Everything he was buying a starbucks in london at a coffee, his rent, everything he defaulted all the time back to us dollars. Um, he was, he was really interesting. And he, you know you're now in in dubai, aren't?

Dr. James, 14m 39s:

you? Uh, not right as of now, as you speak presently in northern ireland, but we'll be back out there soon presently in northern ireland.

Jon, 14m 47s:

Okay, it's sunny when you're abroad it's.

Dr. James, 14m 49s:

It's funny, right, because I can feel myself doing them. Because, for anybody doesn't know, in uae it's durham's is the local currency, right? And uh, when I'm out and about everything that I buy, I'm tallying in my head it does. It's almost like the terms don't make sense to me. Legit currency, they just it's just not. It's just not my context, right? So I'm everything's getting defaulted to pounds. Wait, so I'm acting like pounds is the only currency in the worldwide world. So you're making me reflect, okay, because, yeah, I don't actually want to be in the UK long term. Why am I doing that? You know what I mean? Oops, have I lost you? Are you still there?

Jon, 15m 33s:

yeah yeah, still, here, still here sorry just late, late in the day on a Tuesday.

Dr. James, 15m 37s:

Preston wi-fi mate, everybody's just come home and logged on to netflix, something like that anyway uh so we said you were talking about.

Jon, 15m 46s:

Yes, even when you're um in a country sort of maybe long term or permanently there's still this sort of anchoring we could call it in a behavioral bias to our home currency. Um, people who speak english as a second language will always there's almost like a moment uh, they'll talk about where um, suddenly they start thinking in english or thinking in in um. You know there's their second language uh, in a different way, and it's the same with currencies. You know, we we always peg back to the currency we're most familiar with, um, because we like to spend it, we like to think about it, and so it makes sense to kind of think about things from pounds, particularly if we're pricing back, because it matters for how many food shops or cars or iPhones that we can buy with the money that we're investing. So, yeah, I think that's why we do it.

Dr. James, 16m 44s:

Yeah, and that is just making me reflect a little bit now, because it's totally a habitualized thing. And what do we know about habitualized things? They're not always, maybe necessarily, the most appropriate things for our circumstances, and that's why so much of money and wealth is about breaking beliefs that you've held on to that no longer serve you, or perspectives that no longer serve you necessarily. And at least if you're inquisitive about them and analyze them, then at least you can decide whether or not they're still useful, rather than just something that you're habitualized to and therefore continuously do because of that yeah, 100.

Jon, 17m 21s:

And I think perspective is a really interesting point on this, because, as investors, it it's really important that we either find people who have really good perspective on things or we make sure we get a good perspective on things in the research that we're doing. Everything can be like when you're working with any numbers or statistics everything can be painted in different pictures. You know, you can slice things up in different ways to make any data set look how you want it to. And that was one of the other things that I kind of noted with this data set that I was sent was it was a 15-year period, from 2003 to 2018. And if we think about that time period in particular, there's a couple of really big, significant things that are going on in global macroeconomics that make you go is this data set representative of wider history? It's a couple of those. One of them is 2003,. We're just coming off the back of the tech bubble bursting and 9-11, and the sort of fallout of this massive geopolitical shock. So we're coming off the back of this massive geopolitical shock. So we're coming off the back of this. There's a bit of a bear market from 2003 for a few years and then we get to 2008,. We have a global financial crisis 2007, 2008, when currency fear is at a global level, the biggest it's been since the late 1920s, right through then to 2018. So it's a data set that, in particular, is focused on a period of great currency shock. So what I did for this client is went back and I found the data as far back as we could find it. As far back as we could find it. This was about 1978. The World Gold Council, msci World Index. We could compare it to stock market returns and inflation from the Fed in the US, because gold is generally priced against dollars as a reserve currency. And I looked deeper into these numbers and it showed that this period, this 2003 to 2018 period, was a bit of an outlier when we look at it in terms of the returns of gold, compared to, say, the stock market, the global stock market during that period. And it was really interesting that sort of different perspective. And in terms of those perspectives, there's sort of three ways that we've looked at this data. One of them is on like a three-year rolling basis, one of them is on a five-year and one of them is on a 10-year rolling basis. So a rolling basis just for those that aren't sort of familiar with it is you say, like we go, say, year 2010 to 2020, on a three year rolling basis? Well, 2010 is going to be the period of 2008, 2009, 2010. So those three years is what you'll look at when you look at your 2010 number, and then you'll go 2009, 2010, 2011. So you've got that next rolling three-year period. So it's looking at three-year sections of time and we asked ourselves would you have been better in gold or better in the stock market over a three-year period, from 1979 right through to 2023. And it was really interesting what came out of it. This is on a pure cumulative performance basis. Okay, so we look at those three year holding periods. Stock market won 64% of the time, compared to gold 36% of the time. So about a third to two thirds. If we go to five-year periods, it's 71% stocks to 29% gold. If we go 10-year periods, it's 75% to 25% in terms of those periods of time where gold outperformed stocks. So, over 10-year rolling periods, if you're investing for a 10-year period, 25% of the time gold was a better investment, 75% of the time stocks. This is where it got really interesting, right? This is where it got really interesting. The only times that those gold ones appeared is in the period 2007 to 2015. That was the only time that gold outperformed the stock market over 10-year rolling periods. So in this data set where it's sort of being shown as gold, is this amazing investment over the last 50 years.

Dr. James, 22m 30s:

It's the only data set where gold will appear to have outperformed everything else and been the the great investment so a few lessons there, and one of the biggest ones is look at the long-term data to make your inferences.

Jon, 22m 49s:

Yeah, massively. Look at the long-term data you can kind of you can see where those pressures were and why gold. You can see the story you know. And so that might teach us something for people who are wanting to make a sort of a more speculative approach or an active management type approach to investment, where they might go. Well, if we see similar kind of things happening in the markets and the sort of currency risk or financial stress in in banks, then we might fly to safety, to gold. Um, you know, that might be the kind of outcome. Or you might say look, we can't predict when these things are going to happen, so we've got to play the odds that are in our favor. 75 chance of anything is a good chance, right, if you're going to make money, 75 percent of the time you take that well, that's what.

Dr. James, 23m 42s:

That's what the set and forget. Investors love, right? They just love the thing that is going to give them the highest likelihood of success and they accept they don't win every year but they know that over long timeframes they'll come good.

Jon, 23m 55s:

Yeah, and the only challenge will come is if you find yourself in the midst of one of those moments, of one of those moments and I don't know if you reflect back you've been sort of in this investment world for four or five years now or so. A couple of small market cycles there, that 2022 period, december 21 through to about October 23, when things were pretty sideways and you had to kind of show a bit of patience it's those moments where that belief in the data sets really tests us, doesn't it?

Dr. James, 24m 35s:

well, you know what. You can actually take your beliefs even one step further on that one, because most people are experiencing indecisiveness or a test of their willpower. What if you can take it further and actually think to yourself hey, the market's trading at a discount. Are you with me? That's how you think it. To the real next level, yeah, and those for the people who really, really, really are aligned emotionally with what the data would suggest long term. And that sounds like a really small thing. Actually, it's a big thing because most, there's still a lot of people out there these days that are investing based off emotions. You can see that in the market. That's why a lot of the reason why the market does fluctuate. So it's only really when you have that literacy that you can think to yourself actually, I can see what's happening. Now, however, I can see that actually, the real value of these things is probably quite similar, even though the price because price is what you pay, value is what you get the price is trading at a discount. So therefore, it's an opportunity, potentially Not always, of course, not always.

Jon, 25m 36s:

So we'll just, conscious of time, we'll cover off a couple of other sort of things with gold or investing in gold that come to mind. To the come to mind, you know, gold is, um, a physical object, right? So you've got two choices about how you invest in gold. Really, you can buy gold coins and bullion. I've had clients who have bought little bullion, then brick of gold, and you can kind of default that to maybe jewelry and other such things that, uh, you know, family heirlooms, those sort of things. But really when we're talking about investment in gold, we're thinking about bullion and you the problems with that is transportation, storage and security. Um, you know, I had a client who inherited some gold and it it was a real headache for them because then it had to be. You know, in their house is about 50,000 pounds worth of gold bullion, so not not an amount that you can just sort of put in your bedside drawer, you know. So it's either like buy a really good, safe, hope no one finds out about it, or sell it can I ask a question, just pure curiosity how many gold ingots is 50 000 like?

Dr. James, 26m 56s:

what actual mass of gold is that, you know? Is it like a couple kilograms? Do you know? I'm just curious.

Jon, 27m 2s:

We'd have to look it up. You'd have to look it up. Yeah, you know, I'm just curious. We'd have to look it up, you'd have to look it up. This was a good few years ago, but it was a good chunk of gold. It was not so much that it was like you know. It looked like a stack of gold on a table.

Dr. James, 27m 22s:

Yeah, I'm just curious.

Jon, 27m 24s:

It was enough to be a problem and it meant that actually then selling it it's kind of difficult as well because it's you know, you've got all sorts of money laundering regulations to go through. When you come and sell it you have to transport it, there's fees and everything else. So actually most of the time when people come to invest in gold, they'll do it through an etf, an exchange traded fund, which is a vehicle that kind of replicates gold, and there's far more gold ETFs than there is actual physical gold. That's one of those sort of weird, weird quirks of the financial world. So that's how people tend to do. It is one of those two ways and people tend to prefer the ETF route. What that does mean the ETF is kind of you've moved then away from. It's about my security and it's about my setup of a life elsewhere. It's more than you're worried about the what's going on with inflation and people tend to use it more of a speculative. I think there's going to be some supply or demand shops on currency. We'll buy in, we'll buy out, you know those sorts of things. It's the same reason that the most traded ETF in the world is an S&P 500 ETF because people use it to speculate on market going up or down very quickly. It's the most traded equity in the world, so that's where those are. And then it's really this question of well. Some people will come in and say well, we'll just use gold for diversification so that if there is a shock in the market, a flight to safety, we've got something in there. That's just going to take the sting out of the tail and you'll see, sometimes commodities either a basket of commodities or gold itself be brought into a portfolio for that reason, and a portfolio manager will sit there and go well, I know this 1%, 2% of our portfolio isn't going to produce any income. It's not an investment in that way, but it's almost like an insurance policy and we'll just be comfortable with this small bit. And I can see some sort of logic in the story. But it's not something that we'd necessarily do as a firm. We'd much rather educate our clients around riding out volatility and accepting it as the price of admission and a feature, not a bug, of investing, but that tends to be how people do it. And then you just end up with this question of well, do I need to diversify into gold and how much is enough to diversify? We'll leave that to the audience, I guess.

Dr. James, 30m 14s:

Yes, absolutely Well. My logic and stance on the matter is that I can see you've got the gold bugs out there, right, and they like the physical gold, and their whole argument is well, if society collapses tomorrow, that I can see you've got the gold bugs out there, right, and they like the physical gold, and their whole argument is well, if society collapses tomorrow and there's a nuclear war, something really bad happens. And we still got the one true money, which is gold, or certainly the original money, right? And it brings up all these questions, like we're all actually programmed to think that gold is valuable, right, and it's just this received wisdom that we've generationally received from our parents year on year. And if you actually sit back and think, god, why do we all, as a species, actually love gold? It's mainly just because it looks pretty and it doesn't tarnish. That's actually a huge reason why. Um, so so what I'm saying is it's massively subjective. What is looking pretty. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right, it's the most subjective thing. Yeah, so value is subjective massively. But anyway, the point that I'm making is that if you're a gold bug, then I can see. Ultimately, none of us know what's going to happen, and I'm not. Listen, I'm not. I haven't bought a bunker somewhere in the States that I've got a second home in, or anything like that. I don't think it's going to happen, are you with me? But I could see how, if someone was preparing for that moment that they might buy some physical gold, right? But then people don't want to have the liability of having that gold lying around their house, right? So they're like, okay, well, I like gold, get some exposure to the go to to the gold market or to the gold industry via etfs. But then I'm like, okay, cool, but then you're just, you're almost kind of just getting the exposure for the sake of getting exposure, just to say that you have some gold. Because in reality, the returns on etfs that are local, that are that are that are composed of gold companies, are usually not as good as the market in and of itself. Plus, you have all the risks that the gold bugs argue against whenever it comes to investing in paper assets, which are that, ultimately, if society fails, capital markets will fail and your paper assets won't be worth anything anyway. So to me it's just a lot more straightforward to just gain some exposure to maybe more mainstream investments in on the stocks front, however those look. But listen, that's just my two cents, that's just my thoughts. Those are just my reflections, guys. The reason why we're here is to illuminate the path whenever it comes to investing for everybody who's out there in the whole wide world, and to allow people to make decisions from a place of complete knowledge, because then they're conscious decisions rather than unconscious decisions or things that we're just deciding upon because we're going with the flow without actually really questioning the underlying logic. So, on that very note, guys, it's been awesome to have john back on the podcast today. John, I should just ask, was there anything more you wanted to add to that, or was that a a neat round off for what we were just saying?

Jon, 33m 7s:

That's a pretty neat round off. I mean, you know me, mate. I love the sound of my own voice. So I could rattle on about this for another hour.

Dr. James, 33m 13s:

But I think we that makes two of us that makes two of us, If you really like the sound of your own voice and you get to do it and it's somewhat socially acceptable.

Jon, 33m 28s:

So, yeah, just uh, letting you know on that one. Anyway, john, if anybody needs is another white, middle-class man with a podcast I know, yes, that's true, I hear they're scarce.

Dr. James, 33m 35s:

I hear they're scarce, um, but yeah anyway. So, um, what was I going to say? Um, john, it's been amazing to have you along, as always, and john's actually starting a podcast sometime soon, so if we shout that out on the airwaves then it totally has to happen, but I'm sure it's going to be an amazing podcast. Any working titles on the podcast? So far, john, for yourself not yet.

Jon, 33m 57s:

My working titles for Juniper were ferocious, so any working titles will not get spoken out there until I gotcha.

Dr. James, 34m 4s:

They're on the drawing board and they're. They're under wraps until they'll be made public in due course by the signs of it. Well, john, listen, apart from the podcast, which we're eagerly anticipating, if anybody would like to get in touch with you otherwise, how would be the best way to do that?

Jon, 34m 19s:

yeah, uh you can find juniper wealth on online at juniperwealthcouk and facebook and instagram, and then my tags is juniper john uh, I think it's juniper, underscore john, juniper john. I'm not very good on the old social medias. You can find me on instagram, twitter, uh, and on the obviously on the dwi facebook group boom.

Dr. James, 34m 39s:

Yeah, instagram on the gram. You got to watch out for those underscores, right, because that's the difference between finding what you're looking for and not at all.

Jon, 34m 46s:

Right but I reckon social media people will kill me. Let me just look it up. Let me look it up it's juniper, underscore john boom, glad we nailed that one.

Dr. James, 34m 53s:

Well, you know what, if you struggle with underscores, if you type in juniper, you'll probably find john anyway. So there we are, john, listen, absolute pleasure to have you along, we're finding. We're looking forward to the next podcast. Hope you're safe and well in the meantime, much.