Dr James, 8s:

another episode of Dentists Who Invest podcast today, with a brand new guest that we've never had on the show before and also, in addition to that, a topic that we've never covered, but we really should have done. By episode 310, I think that we're on now, so in the full back catalog of the Dentists Who Invest podcast. You've never had the chance to talk about this and it's getting the right property whenever it comes to opening a squat, purchasing a, a well, setting up a squat, setting up a dental practice for the first time, which is, of course, a squat, because that is a big thing that can make or break your dental practice. So more on that to come in just a second. Before we talk about that, I just want to introduce my amazing guest today, Mr Steve Kettle. How are you today, Steve?

Steve, 48s:

Good thanks, James. Yeah, glad to be with you this morning.

Dr James, 52s:

Hey mate, mate, absolute pleasure, do you know what? And it's interesting how we connected, didn't we? Because I heard about your Clover, uh, clover, clover, dental fit out, but I believe the Clover umbrella also does events and a few other things as well, if I've got that right yeah, that's right.

Steve, 1m 4s:

Yeah, so we do um, we do squat fit outs um, we do property search for dentists and um. We also run um, um events around um drive outs, mainly um for dentists as well. So, yeah, that's a fairly, fairly new one this year, but it's been successful, I would say, so far top stuff and I saw on the website before aston martin's porsches, all sorts right supercars yeah, so we started off with um, with um with porsche. Actually we did a an event for a dental supplier, um, over in bolton where he wanted to put a couple of dental chairs within the fabric of the porsche center, um, and so we ran that event for him. We had about 40 dentists there. It was done in the evening. It was a very successful one for the supplier. I think the Porsche Centre sold a couple of cars on the back of it.

Dr James, 2m 2s:

I was going to say did they sell any Porsches?

Steve, 2m 5s:

Yeah, so that was a bit further down the line. I think six months down the line, when we phoned them up, they said we sold a couple of cars, so that was good news for porch. And um, basically the principal of that uh dealership said to me would I like to do some uh drive out events with them, um, this year? And um, I said, what does that entail? They said, well, we'll, you know, we'll the cars, we'll take you to a nice restaurant and you can bring some of your clients. And so I targeted a dentist. Really, yeah, so they get a drive out, they get some CPD and some fine dining, really.

Dr James, 2m 45s:

Exciting stuff, all right, cool. Well, listen, let's pull this podcast back to what we were saying at the very start. No-transcript is for us to talk about that. Talk about the parameters of what makes a good deal. Whenever it comes to a dentist getting the property for their squat practice, I'm just curious how does that look? Again, it's a big black hole in my knowledge as well. I imagine it starts out by negotiating a freehold or a leasehold, or how does does that look? I'm gonna let you take the mic yeah, so.

Steve, 3m 35s:

So when we get an inquiry that comes through from a dentist, they'll, we'll take a brief off them. So, like you said, James, what you're looking to do, you're looking to freehold, to buy, you're looking to leasehold. So establish that first, and then what we need to find out is what sort of area they're looking at, the demographics. So you know, a lot of dentists will say you know, a lot of my patients are within this certain area, so I like to be within five to ten miles of that. So we say, right, okay, that's fine, and then they'll sort of let us know whether they want to be, you know, in a retail environment. So a lot of dentists now are going to places where there's a lot of footfall, perhaps near one of the supermarkets or a Costa Coffee or somewhere like that.

Dr James, 4m 21s:

Can I just jump in right when you said that. You said that to me off camera and it made me smile because you're probably the third person that I've ever had say that to me. They said to me James, you want to set up a dental practice? Look for a Costa or a frigging Martin Spencer or something along those lines, because there's a lot of people and they can make for great opportunities. And the first time someone said it to me I was like okay, I kind of took it with a pinch of salt, but I'm hearing it more and more. It's interesting.

Steve, 4m 47s:

Yeah, well, I mean, it's also. I think one of the things you need to look at is parking as well. So if you look at, for instance, one that I did recently was next to a Waitrose there's three hours free parking. So you can, you know, you can just come along, do a park up, go to the dental practice, then perhaps do a bit of shopping after, and that works really well, because parking is a problem in. You know, if you're rushing to get to an appointment, you want somewhere to park. So there's really that the high street is is becoming a you know, now an area that dentists are popping up more and more and more now, and then the other, the other areas are really around office accommodation. So we're looking at a couple at the moment where they're on a, and then the other areas are really around office accommodation. So we're looking at a couple at the moment where they're on a commercial development. So that's trending as well, and again, the parking there is very good. So, yeah, so, basically, what we do is we get the brief and then we need to know how many surgeries you want, how many square foot do you want to look at, and then we basically would do search then through our agents. So we've got basically the demographics and we go out to our property agents that we know all around the country and give them the brief. The dentist basically has a kind of a six month window with me to find it the first one for them it's sometimes we can find one straight away. So recently, you know, we've taken us about two months to find one for a dentist. But then I've had a couple where there's one gentleman and he he was just at signing the heads of terms and the landlord decided to do a u-turn and offer the building to another one of his tenants, which was you know. So we were back to square one with that. So it is a bit of a roller coaster sometimes but we do get properties that are off market sent to us. So this would be the agent ringing me saying Steve, we have a property here which we think would be really good as a dental practice. This is the area it's in, this is how many square foot it is. So they give me the particulars and they'll say we've not gone to market with this yet. It's going to be going to market in the next couple of weeks. Do you know anybody that might be interested in it. So we market in the next couple of weeks. Do you know anybody that might be interested in it? So we get, we get that side of things coming through all the time and we also have some, um, some software that we subscribe to that emails us each day. If we're looking for one in, say, north london, then we get alerts on that and it will email us and say this property's now come for rent or for lease or it's come to, you know, to sell. So we get the heads up really, really quickly. I think for the dentist it's, it can be quite time consuming trying to find these properties and getting back to the agents. I mean yesterday I spoke to an agent five or six times about one property, and so from the dentist's point of view, it's it's to know that someone's out there working on their behalf, um, and also knows exactly what they're looking for.

Dr James, 8m 0s:

Yeah, I could definitely see that being a big bottleneck the communication side of things for dentists, especially over the surgery. Yeah, because the reality is communication is like iteration, right, we're kind of we're trying to figure out a deal, we're iterating towards that deal, and the more you iterate, the sooner you get there is another way of looking at it. So, yeah, and obviously with stuff like this, as soon as you can just get it over the line when you've got the right place, the better. Effectively. But yeah, anyway, listen, thanks for that high level brief on how that process looks effectively. I'm just curious to know leasehold versus freehold. I and listen again, definitely not my forte and area of expertise. I see and hear so many whispers whenever it comes to the leasehold side of things, of dentists setting up their dream practice and then getting booted out with time. Get that you're going to hear, I'm going to hear the worst. Uh, you know you're going to hear the horror stories before you hear anything else. But I'm just curious how can? Number one, is that as frequent as everybody makes it out to be, or at least it appears? And then, number two, how can dentists avoid that scenario? What can? What do they need to know?

Steve, 9m 4s:

yeah, well, I mean mainly dentist idea would go for leaseholder. I mean, I've got one dentist at the moment that's going for freehold, but it's more difficult to find a freehold so they're more rare. So, um, this particular particular um dentist is looking for a freehold one. I've it's probably been with me now about two and a half months and I've literally got all the agents out there looking for a freehold property for him. I got one and it was actually $250,000 over his budget and I couldn't negotiate that down. But it's difficult to find. Anything that's freehold often gets snapped up by, you know, developers and things like that. Okay, so it's difficult to find freehold and obviously it ideally that's the way you want to go, because you own the building, you know it's your building and you can, you know, within reason, do what you want with it. On the leasehold, what when? What you need to do really is to um is to negotiate the best possible deal for for you as a dental practice. So I would always advise like a longer lease, so like 10 to 15 years on the lease, and I would also look at um having having a break in there as well. You know, maybe after five years that you can review it, but you will have invested quite a lot of money into it, so it's probably something that you want to keep hold of or you'll want to sell on eventually. The other thing as well is that often the landlord asks for a rent deposit. The landlord asks for a rent deposit so that couldn't be 12 months of the of the first year's rent. So it's quite a lot of money. And what the landlords often do is they say that that rent deposit will be kept until the end of the term of the lease, which means you've got all that cash tied up, 12 months rent, and you can't get it to the end of the lease. So what I try and do is is sort of say to the the landlords or the landlord's agent that you know, can we have a clause in there that we can get that released um, after, say, three years if the rent's paid on time? And so we would put that into the lease agreement. And the other big thing, James, is the amount of time it takes from taking on a new building to actually opening it up and starting generating some income. So you've got always got the problem with the CQC. I think current current waiting time can be up to six months before they can come out and inspect. Jeez, seriously, that is about talking to people who know this. I work with a CQC compliance company and that's what you're looking at six months for them to come out and inspect. You've then also got to get your fit out done and procure all the equipment. You know the builder might not be able to start for a month or so. So what I always say is that you know, if we can get um 12 months rent free, it gives that time to fit it out, get the cqc approval um and start some of your marketing. You need to get your website up and running. You might need to arrange finance. So I always say to the um the dentist I'll negotiate this for you, if we can that we get a 12 month rent free period um. And then really, what I can do for them then is help them, uh, with the lease. Once I've negotiated the lease and we've drawn up heads of terms through the agent, I have a property lawyer that I can put them in touch with, who can help draw up the lease with the landlord solicitor as well, and so, yeah, that's another thing. One of the things as well is, before you take on a building is to make sure it's feasibility checked. Can it be used as a dental surgery? Has it got the right classification? Who are the competitors around the area? You know, have you got a lot of private practices already around there? So we do a competitor analysis just so they can see who is around the area and who's trading and get some idea of costs and things like that.

Dr James, 13m 29s:

Awesome. And just on that 12 month rent free period you were talking about just a second ago is that in arrears, then? Do you have to pay for the 12 months all at once, or is that just they're just writing off the rent for 12 months? Sure, you might've said that. I might've missed that. What?

Steve, 13m 43s:

they'll do is you won't start paying the rent on it until after 12 months of signing the lease. Yeah, Right. I see, but you don't.

Dr James, 13m 52s:

it's not like you owe them for 12 months.

Steve, 13m 56s:

No, that's the deal, because if you're signing up for a longer lease, the landlord will say okay, we've got a good covenant in here with the dentists. They're signed up for 15 years. We appreciate they need time to get up and trade in, so we're happy to do 12 months, but it is. I mean. A lot of them try and knock you down and say six months, but I would say probably nine months is about as low as you want to go. You know nine months, nine months rent free, yeah. And then you need to go. You know nine months, nine months, rent free, yeah, um. And then you need to look at when they can um, rent increases, you know. So you can set the parameters on that and say rent reviews are every five years, so every five years there's a rent review. So you know you've got some certainty of what you're going to be paying in terms of rent for the first five years. Um, and you can actually have it. So it's um. You know in line with um. You know the market's price. It's not. They're not saying, oh, we can put it up by 50 after five years. It's all you know, it's all set by. You know the marketplace and what rents are in the area understood, understood.

Dr James, 15m 1s:

And you know the cqc process, you know the way. It takes six months for them to actually come out and see you. So how can we, how can identis navigate that so they're not just basically sitting around for six months as in can they get the application in ASAP and then kind of build the plane as they're flying? It sort of thing? Is that kosher? Is that allowed?

Steve, 15m 20s:

Is it not allowed. Yeah, no, it's allowed. James, yeah, James, yeah, you just, basically, as soon as you've signed the lease, you get in touch with the CQC compliance company and start, you know, start filling in the forms and getting it moving through. Yeah, for sure, you've got to do that, so, and that's allowed. Yeah, you can say that you've now took possession of this building and you want to start the process of CQC approval.

Dr James, 15m 45s:

Awesome. Do you know what? Something just popped into my head there and you would be a brilliant person to ask on this. Obviously, your remit comes towards these dental practices, as in your remit, in terms of how you help these dental practices very much, getting an amazing deal from the property side of things, getting your practice fitted out and things along those lines, and naturally I'm going to imagine that you stay in touch with these people with time. Do you know the people that have set up the really successful squat practices versus the ones that have maybe not done as well as they'd like? What do you think the difference is between those people? What have you noticed? What commonalities have the successful practices got between them versus what commonalities of the maybe not ones that haven't been as successful as they would have liked got between them? What's the difference in your mind?

Steve, 16m 31s:

well, I think. I think when you're setting up a squat, it's, it's. It is about location for sure, visual, be visual. Have somewhere where people will see you. You know you're not stuck around the back somewhere. Um, you know footfall. People say, oh, there's a dental practice opening up, and things like that. Um, you know, once you've got the building as well, you know footfall people say, oh, there's a dental practice opening up, and things like that. You know, once you've got the building as well, you know put something, put some marketing out there, put something in the window. You know saying come in soon. You know, sign up now. All about the marketing, James, to be honest, you know you've got to get your name out there. You know, one of the practices that I opened, we actually did school talks. So we took two dentists into all the local schools and we did some talks on healthy teeth and while we were there we distributed leaflets and things like that. So the marketing is a big element of it, and those that spend the money wisely on the marketing as well, you know you can go, you can do lots of things, but even just traditional leaflet drops works, you know, around the area, and so I would say definitely, the marketing is a big, a big side of it really. And also I think you need to make sure that you've. When you open up a squat, it does take a little bit of time to build up and build your book up, so you need to be making sure that you've got sufficient cash flow to manage. Some of them say, well, I've fitted everything out and I've got all my equipment and everything, but now I've not got any cash flow. So you'll need to have that as a buffer, not run out of money, not being able to pay wages and things like that. You need to factor in that you need to have some working capital for the first 12 months before you really start seeing it coming into a profit. And I think what you've got to realize as well, James, is that, like any business, when you first start it, you've got to be really in it, driving it, you know, working really, really hard. It's your business. Now you're the one that's, you know you're next on the line. You've committed to this, this investment, which can be a lot of money by the time you've got equipment in and fit out. Some of them are the best part of 350,000, 400,000, and then you might need 100,000 for cash flow. So it's a big investment and I'd just say those ones that work really hard at it, enthusiastic about it, they're the ones that make it a success. But it's not easy. I'm not saying it's easy.

Dr James, 19m 13s:

It's certainly not. And in a weird way, right, I'm going to say something. I don't know if this is controversial or not, but I'm going to say it anyway. I think, as a business owner, you don't actually want it to be too easy. And here's why, right? Because, remember, if it's really easy, anyone can do it. There's virtually no barrier to entry. The more of a barrier there is to entry, then what it means is that, well, other people are unlikely to pursue the same field that you're in. So here's the thing If there's more of a barrier to entry, that means that when you do eventually break through, you know that there's so much headway between everybody else and yourself that actually, you're in a really sweet spot and your head's above the clouds, so it's big plus as well. When it's really hard, you're also learning lots of things as well, in my opinion. So if you can reframe the hardness as learning, well, it doesn't fully mitigate it because, listen, it's not easy and we definitely don't want to diminish it, but it's a nice little reframe that can help you keep going. And I think every business is like that. I think you want it to be tough because you learn the most things and you also create this huge barrier to entry to the successful. When you become a success, there's this huge barrier of entry to everybody else.

Steve, 20m 14s:

To get to where you currently are, which means there's less competition, is another cool way of looking at it yeah, yeah, no, I'd agree with that, yeah, yeah everything's like that 100 yeah so I think once you've got, you've got the property, you've then got the job of fitting it out and equipment and all the things that go with it. So I don't know if you want to talk a bit about that.

Dr James, 20m 40s:

Yes, let's talk about that, because that's definitely part of the equation. Whenever you set up a squat practice and just before we do, do you know the way you said, it's really good to have a cash buffer, a huge cash buffer, whenever you set up the practice. Any rules of thumb on that or any equations to figure out how much is necessary?

Steve, 20m 57s:

I think you've got a. You've got to have a um. You know, all right, you've got your rent free period negotiated, so you won't be paying any rent, which is good. But you know obviously that time's taken with the fit out and everything else. So I think you probably need sort of um. You know probably about a hundred thousand, I would say, in cash flow gotcha 100, 100 grand in the kitty. And now yeah, so you're not worrying, you can get, you know you can. You can pay all your staff. You can, you know, pay all your, because you mean, with the building as well, you'll have the business rates to pay. So we always get the business rates before, um, before signing the lease, you'll know what the business rates are. Also, if it's leasehold, there'll be a service charge as well, a monthly service charge. So that'd be like the bins and all that sort of stuff, any exterior maintenance and things, all the you know the, the people within the development will pay a service charge. So there's a lot of bills going out every month and you want to be focusing on your business, not having to worry about the money side of things. So so, yeah, that would be my sort of an indication.

Dr James, 22m 2s:

Yeah good, so 100 grand ballpark figure and it might be slightly one side of that, but that's what we should be expecting. Okay, cool, let's talk about what you just suggested a second ago, which is the equipment and fit out side of things. How does that process normally look? Any advice in that area?

Steve, 22m 20s:

yeah. So basically, where it starts off is that you, you need to. Um, we can do this before you. Before you sign the lease, we can give you some sort of concept drawings of how the surgery would configure. So you need to see that before you actually sign the lease. Make sure it works. It's got enough. You know there's enough um power coming in from the electrics. You can. You know the whole thing works as a practice. That's what you need to do before you sign up so we can do some concept drawings and things like that. Um, what you need to do before you sign up so we can do some concept drawings and things like that um, what you need to do after that is to get approval, and some dentists don't do this and it causes a problem. So you need to get approval from building control. You need to submit the drawings to the building control department and now that can be done. Now it used to be through the local authority, but you can. You can employ an independent building control officer now who would would then submit those drawings and they would get signed off to say that they comply with all building regulations. So you've got that in the bag. And then also you need to go to the fire officer and make sure that they're happy means of escape, so everything, all that's, they're happy with that and they give you a certificate to say signed up, these drawings have been signed off. So you've got that. You need those drawings at the end, those sign offs at the end for the cqc, because they'll ask you for them. Can you get your building contractor to provide us with sign off from building control? So so that side of things, um, you need to do first, um, and then obviously then you go out to. You're going to go out to tender and to find a builder that's going to be able to deliver it for you. So my recommendation is there's a difference between your traditional builder that does household renovations or whatever to a dental practice, because there's lots of different things that you need to comply with. That gets you through the CQC. So I would suggest that you go to a contractor that's done dental work before, ask them where they fitted out before, if they could give you a couple of practices they've done, and then you can go and talk to them and say how were they, how did they do the job? Did everything go through CQC? Fine, and then I'd suggest to go out to three contractors and what you need to do is to produce a schedule of works, James. So it's not just, um, oh, that room, or what a few sockets in there, it's actually a detailed schedule of works that says in this room, we require, you know, four sockets. The flooring needs to be a certain type of flooring, um, you know, and everything is down there, and then each contractor prices that work and it's apples for apples and pairs for pairs, so that when you get the price back, you know that they've all priced the same.

Dr James, 25m 16s:

That makes sense it totally does. So basically, what you're saying is have a plan, yeah, which is it's? This is the thing it's like, uh, it's so. It takes so much it feels tedious planning things. But there's a saying that I love an ounce of pre-work is worth a pound post-work trying to make it right later, and it is so true, and smoothing out that process can only be a good thing. It's going to save you time and money, so it's worth it effectively, because otherwise there's going to be too much discretion between each and every contractor, I guess really. So they're going to give you one price for something on another price for another thing, and it's not even standardized unless you actually have a plan effectively, because that is what standardizes it. So I like that. That's a good tip. Anything else, when it comes to the building side of things, any other need to know things.

Steve, 26m 5s:

Whenever it comes to setting up squat practice, yeah, I think what you need to do as well is um is, if you're an award, a contractor with the project is is is ask them for, like um, you know, a plan so that you know they're going to do a program of works for you, and so they. How long is this going to take? It's going to take three months to do this, and what you need to know is that in week one through to week 12, exactly what's going to happen, you know, because the contractor will be looking for stage payments, and so what you need to make sure that you're doing is you're not paying them more than the work that they've completed and that they're on time. So because you've got, obviously, cqc coming in and things. So a program of works is is always helpful, um, and what's going to happen on those particular weeks. And then I would say that if you haven't got the time, I know a lot of dentists will want to project manage it themselves, but actually if you get somebody, somebody into project manage it who can go in, deal with the contractor, look at the valuations, check off the work, make sure everything complies, it gets rid of a big headache for the dentists because they're you know they're still working. It's another, another job to try and do. So I would say, you know, if you can get a project manager in to look after it and for you, um, then that's less of a headache for sure, some words of wisdom right there and listen.

Dr James, 27m 36s:

I love this sort of knowledge because it's direct, in the field knowledge and you're sharing your experiences with dentists to speed up their journey, because these, these are mistakes that we're all going to make unless we have a guiding hand, unless we have a little bit of input from someone who's been there and done that. What about on the events side of things? Do you come across many dentists who run their own events, or can you offer them any expertise on that front? Cause I know that you obviously do run your, your, your, your events? And what have you with Aston Martin and Porsche, as you were saying earlier?

Steve, 28m 7s:

Yeah, Well, I think what, what happened with the event site James is it was. You know, traditionally there's lots of events for dentists, isn't there? I mean, there's lots of shows that you can go to. I think there's one coming up on Friday. But I got the feeling, talking to dentists and some of the suppliers, is that the footfall had gone down a little bit at some of the shows and they're quite expensive to go to little bit at some of the shows and they're quite expensive to go to. So I just thought, um, I'd come up with something a little bit different for dentists where they can have a day out the surgery. Um, you know, they can go drive some nice cars. So, as you say, I've got sort of uh, I've done 12 now with Porsche this year and we've done um three with Aston Martin. We've got another one coming up just in the new year, but for next year I've actually got a pretty full diary now. So we've got about 18 Porsche driving events and four or five Aston Martin confirmed. But we're also talking to Ferrari to do a day out as well, a drive out. So and it's just a nice blend of a day. So you know, it's a relaxing day. You can do some networking, talk to some fellow dentists, we get a guest speaker in over the lunch or before we go out to the drive and we get an hour CPD. And then, you know, there's suppliers there as well. So our sponsors there that you know the dentists can talk to I also have sponsors there that you know the dentists can talk to, and mainly the sort of dentists that are coming are practice owners, principals. To be honest, you know it's mainly those sort of people that are coming along to it and they're fairly small groups. So it's quite an intimate group, you know. Maybe you know 10 dentists, five sponsors and a speaker and myself and you just get to spend the whole day together and it's just that it's events with a different twist, really.

Dr James, 30m 1s:

So yeah, you know what the networking side of things is so important and I never really appreciated it until I started running Dennis, who invested things that you can learn over finger food and cocktails at the lunch times and those sorts of events, is frigging crazy, and the people that you meet as well. It can really accelerate your journey. So I'm definitely a big proponent of that, uh, and everything along those lines. So, yeah, man, it's. So this is this, is it's very much a new venture, then this is this is something that you started this year, but there seems to be a lot of uptake on it by the signs of it.

Steve, 30m 39s:

Yeah, well, I did the first one this year in February, I think probably a shade early, James. To be honest, I've gone through the learning curve. I know there's a target isn't there, for UDAs? That crystallizes in March.

Dr James, 30m 54s:

I didn't even think of that, but that's probably true.

Steve, 30m 57s:

Yeah, and so a lot of dentists yeah, and you know, I think you've got to give them a good lead in time. What we found was that if we're saying, oh well, we're doing an event in a month's time, dentists can't. They can't plan that you need need to be. That's why now we've got all of next year's events planned in, you know, in the diary and we can we can, you know, go to dentists, say, look, if you're interested in coming on this event, it's in it's next year, you've got time to plan for it. So that's one of the lessons learned. You need three to six months leading on these events really to um, to allow the dentist to take the time off understood fair enough, okay, well, listen, Steve.

Dr James, 31m 37s:

Thank you so much for your time on the Dentists Who Invest podcast today. I know that you said that you had some events coming up soon. Where would anybody's interest be best off finding out about those on your website?

Steve, 31m 49s:

yeah, so if you go on um, it's cloverdentalfitout.co.uk, and then there's a tab there that says up and coming events. So actually the next one is going to be in Newcastle. It's a Porsche Dental Roadshow on the 17th, and then we've got another one in London just before, obviously the end of the year, 21st of November, which is South London and Porsche Dental Roadshow, but there's there's numerous ones for next year on the website. We've got a Mercedes-Benz track day, 10th of April. We're doing a trip around the Highlands North Coast 500, and I've got a selection of the Grand Prix's on there as well that we're going to be going to next year. So you know Spanish Grand Prix, british Grand Prix. So, yeah, there's a golf event on there. If you fancy James, a bit of golf in Ireland. Do you know what?

Dr James, 32m 46s:

I'm not a golfer, despite my Irish heritage, because I know Northern Irish people are famed, or Northern Ireland is famed, as golfers, but I'm definitely not representative of that whatsoever. I should get into it really. I should get into it someday.

Steve, 33m 1s:

Would you know Adair Manor at all, adair Manor? I actually have not come across that. Yeah, it's in Cork. It's a lovely five-star hotel with a lovely golf course attached.

Dr James, 33m 16s:

So yeah, it's going to be an exciting year on the events next year as well fun stuff, well listen 2025 is coming around, man, when the heck, three months away from 2025, 2024 has been. I know everybody says this and this is the cliche, but 2024 has been ultra fast. I can't literally cannot believe we're in October already, but there we are. So anybody who's thinking about some events in 2025 is coming around pretty quick. Steve, thank you so much for your time and your knowledge on the Dentistry Universe podcast today. I'm looking forward to having you back very soon. Hope you have an amazing day in the meantime and you and I will pick up things very soon, I'm sure.

Steve, 33m 54s:

Okay, thanks, James, appreciate your time.