Dr James, 8s:

yeah, these four things to double your revenue. Yeah, it sounds crazy. Yeah, it sounds a little out there, but it's totally possible, as evidenced by my very special guest today, Dr Barry Oulton. Barry, should we jump straight in? Let's do it. How are you amazing, man? I'm freaking brilliant. How are you? What's fresh?

Dr Barry, 25s:

uh, I'm sweet mate. I'm yeah, it's, it's going really well helping people. Uh, yeah, it's going really well helping people. Hell yeah, in fact, do you know somebody that sent me a very lovely thank you note saying that she had doubled her yield, doubled her income, in the last six months?

Dr James, 43s:

And this was the inspo for this podcast that we're about to shoot right now, right here. So I'm all ears.

Dr Barry, 49s:

Yeah, because honestly I believe that anybody can do it and it's not. The aim of the game is not so much to focus on the money right. The money just comes when you get everything else right. You know, so long as you've got, if you've got pricing right and you've got patients coming through the door, then doubling your income is actually really easy by service. It's all about doing things to enable your patients to make better choices, because when patients make better choices, typically they're choosing the higher value dentistry. The way that we present dentistry is they're then choosing additional dentistry because it makes sense to them at the time and it's really all about the relationship. So if I could say, look, you could double your income. But the way to do that is to forget about money. It's not about money, it's about service. It's about looking after the patient. Oh my word. It's about ignoring your wife when she calls you, when she knows you're on a podcast, mate, and don't do not disturb.

Dr James, 1m 51s:

Technical glitch blooper alert. We, we're gonna glaze that one over right there yeah that's fine.

Dr Barry, 1m 55s:

So, yeah, it's all about service, mate. It's about learning how to communicate more clearly. It's understanding that not everybody knows what you're talking about when you're talking about stuff and I don't mean technical stuff, you know if you're talking technical, then hardly anybody understands. What I mean about that is that we speak a different language to people, and that is, people are kinesthetic, people are visual, and so once you understand how people process information and you present it in their model of the world just makes it so much easier.

Dr James, 2m 26s:

So, yeah, there are a number of things or that you could do that will double your income I love that and of course, there's billions of things in reality, but these are four biggies right here, right yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr Barry, 2m 39s:

So first one for me is you've got to make it patient centric and it's not. You know, you can't use the same, the same words in the same system and the same process for every single patient. It's got to be adapted and changed to that patient. So number one is build rapport Is that when you're in rapport, it means that you're being more like the other person and we like people who are like us. You think about somebody that you've met and you've gone. Oh my God, it's like I've known him for years and you've just met them. That's because there was this natural rapport where the two of you are similar, and the thing about that is that we can do this on purpose, and so I will make an effort with my patients to be a bit more like them, a little bit less like me, because I talk quickly, I can be a bit bouncy and a bit like Tigger, and if you've got somebody that talks quietly and slowly and is very calm, somebody like me pisses them off because it's like they're just a bit too much.

Dr James, 3m 39s:

Or can I interject, or interject some, yeah, which I did all the time back in the day, and there were clear signs and I didn't realize it until later and I became more of a missionary for this communication stuff that you're talking about right now.

Dr Barry, 3m 54s:

It's interesting in it. There are clear signs and unless we're taught to recognize them, we don't see them. So I used to see the clear signs and I would. They weren't clear to me at the time. I would think that person's odd. I would blame the other person. They're a bit weird. So I had this other thing. So before I learnt my NLP, I'm very kinesthetic right. I show and give and receive love by touch. So I like to touch and be touched, and I don't mean that in a weird freaky way. I mean, you know, I quite like to be touched. I find it reassuring. Well, I thought that everybody was like that, unless you were odd or a bit damaged. That was honestly and I'm almost embarrassed to say that, but I'm not embarrassed because that's how it was. And now I understand it Right. So I had this lady come in. We were chatting away and I'd just done a personal development training course, walked on 1200 degree hot coals and I was like I want to learn NLP. And this lady came in as a new patient. I mean, you know, what do you do for a living? I'm a coach. What do you coach NLP? I was like, oh my God, that's what I want to learn. She was like, well, you know, maybe I could teach you. Anyway, I went to put her back in the chair for an examination and, as I did with everybody, put my hand on her shoulder to guide her back in the chair to reassure her. Your little eyes went super wide. Then I thought that was normal, right, and she was like. She shrugged me off and I was like she's weird, that's a bit odd, right? And actually, at the time, going through the divorce with the ex, it reminded me of the ex-wife and it reminded me of my daughter and I just thought my eldest daughter, who I thought was really getting, you know, negatively impacted by the divorce. Fast forward a few months when I'm learning with this woman and she said do you know, the first time we met, and I was like, yeah, because I'm remembering, thinking, yeah, I was a bit weird, right, I thought she was a bit odd, she went well. Now you understand, some of us are visual, kinesthetic, auditory and auditory digital. When you touched me on the shoulder, you thought you were reassuring me, but I nearly got up and walked out and I was like whoa, it's that much of an intrusion for somebody that isn't kinesthetic. To be touched by somebody is like a. That's a red flag for people, right, and I never realized that. So now I'm super careful and it's not just touching, it's actually all about. The communication is when you understand more about how somebody likes to receive information. When you give it to them in their model of the world, it just makes their choices and their decisions much easier for them. And we find that more people want more dentistry when it's presented to them for them, not presented by me for me love that and it's very true it's.

Dr James, 7m 5s:

I went through exactly the same thing. I thought it was them, whereas in reality there was a good bit of accountability that lay with me and it was a better belief for me to think actually that was 100 me, whether it was or wasn't, it's a better belief to have. Uh, it's better, it's a better way to look at things to have that belief, and the reason why is you'll always find ways to improve if you take full accountability.

Dr Barry, 7m 25s:

I love that and I totally agree and I'm aligned with that is that one of the presuppositions is, you know, a belief is that there is no such thing as failure, only feedback, and that you know I am responsible. I firmly like to sit on the core side of the equation of whatever's going on. I want to take full responsibility for it so that I can think about how do I improve that, how could what did I do that maybe I shouldn't have done? Or how could I, what could I do that I didn't do, or how could I improve on that. And I do that with my clients. So I had a client call, this morning in fact, and he said look you, you know, we're bringing in, taking over a new practice. We're bringing in the old patients. We've not met them before we're bringing them in. He said I saw this, this guy, it's like 45, he's not had bite wings for 25 years. I was like what? So they took bite wings. He said I found some decay. Uh, I wrote the treatment plan. The treatment plan went downstairs. Um, the guy had agreed. He went downstairs, he got the treatment plan. The treatment plan went downstairs. The guy had agreed. He went downstairs, he got the treatment plan and he's basically walked away without having anything done because of the cost. Should I be emailing or sending out letters to all of these patients telling them about our fees? And I went 100% no, what they're not getting. Firstly, what we need to do is just look at what did we do that we could maybe adapt and change and do differently. Right, and this comes back to the first point, which is rapport. I said, in an ideal world, you're going to treat every one of those patients as a new patient and therefore, anything that you're going to be recommending and treatment planning you need to give them face-to-face, eye-to-eye, knee-to-knee, because when you give them a piece of paper downstairs in reception, it has no value to it. When the old boy is charging 50 quid for a composite if he ever did them and you're charging 180, 220 quid for a composite, that's what they're comparing. Cialdini's principles of contrast is their contrast is what's 200 quid? And it used to be 50. Screw that, I'm not doing it, but it's got no value unless you're having a conversation with the patient about what it's doing. So, in a conversation, building rapport, being more like the other person, finding out what's important to that person and then presenting it based on the value means that people start to choose to have the dentistry based on what it's bringing to them, what it's doing for them, what it's avoiding them, not just a piece of paper that says 1500 quid and worth remembering as well.

Dr James, 9m 57s:

Another belief that I find very useful is to remember that your ability to build someone else's understanding of the value that you give is unlimited. So what that means is, the more you explain that, the more you articulate that in a way that they understand is, the more and more and more they will realize just how valuable that truly is. Now, where you cannot go too far with that is that obviously we don't want to completely go wild, don't we, and make them think it's worth millions when it isn't. But what I am saying is that we feel like we're very restricted insofar as we can only charge a certain price or we can only ask for a certain amount of remuneration in return for services. But there's actually a lot more give there than people realize, especially when you well, particularly and only exclusively when you're doing really good dentistry. Already there's a lot more scope than people realize to build that patient in front of you to understand enough of the value that you're giving them.

Dr Barry, 10m 56s:

And the value is different for everybody. The value is based on them. So let me clarify what I mean by that, because you and I might have a slightly different definition of what value is right. The way that I will find out how to elevate that value is it's important to me to find out what's important to the patient. Most dentists and me included, back in the day, right Patient, would come in and I'd be like hi James, how are you Any problems? How are your teeth? They were my opening words in any situation. Really, that was pretty much it. What I'm doing there is I'm looking to identify a problem that you are aware of, because then I'm there to solve it. Put my fireman's hat on, put the fire out, douse the flames, do the filling, do whatever is necessary, and that means I'm only ever ending up doing problem dentistry. Then I do an examination and I'm looking for the problems that you're not aware of, and so, realistically, I was only ever doing immediate dentistry stuff that had to be done for health. What I didn't find out is what's really important to the patient, and so I designed this question it's the 20-year question and it's actually one of my four things right, and it's future, pacing somebody down the line and I ask a question what's important to you about your dental health, your dental appearance, your dental function in, let's say, 20 years? The idea is that they are putting themselves forward in time, thinking about themselves in 20 years, about what's important to them about those three aspects of their teeth, and then they answer me and they go well, you know, I don't want to lose them. I want to make sure I've got all my own teeth. I don't want to have any problems, don't want to have gum disease. I definitely, you know, 20 years I'd like my teeth to be nice and straight and white and I want to. They have literally written their own treatment plan because then I can reference today. So you tell me that in an ideal world you'd like them to be nice and straight and white. How are they today? Are they nice and straight and white? Now, let's assume their answer is yes. Then that leads me into talking about the fact that if they are fit and healthy, they've got BPs of zero, they've got no restorations, they're nice and straight and white and they want to keep them as they are. Most of us would go okay, that's great, see you in 12 months off your pop. Whereas I'm going to talk about great, in order to help you to keep your teeth as they are for the next 20 years, we need to focus on several things. Number one is we need to focus on maintenance, particularly of your gums, and so I'm going to be advising you to come and have your guided biofilm therapy every three months with a hygienist, and I'm also then going to be recommending you see me once a year so that we can head things off. The second thing is 95% of the population grind their teeth, and if you're in the 95%, then there's no way your teeth are going to be the same in 20 years. So we also need to talk and just discover whether a nighttime guard to protect you from grinding might be beneficial. So by simply asking that question to a hundred percent healthy person, I've opened myself up to the possibility of providing them with a high value maintenance program for the next God knows how long an SCI, which is 585 quid, and given them things to think about that nobody's ever asked them. Now imagine they turn around and go. Well, actually, no, they're not as straight as I want and there's not as white as I want. They literally write their own treatment plans for thousands of pounds, which, even if they don't choose to do it now, I now have a reference point to talk to them about. And then everything I talk to them about. Let's say that they are grinding their teeth and they come back in six months and I say look, you know, I'm concerned with what's going on at night when you're sleeping, because there's some grinding going on, and I remember when I first met you, you told me that in 20 years time, it's really important that your teeth are sound, they're healthy and you don't lose any. That's exactly why I'm recommending you consider wearing this night guard. That's the value, it's not the cost.

Dr James, 14m 58s:

So it's, it's. It's almost like the value is entwined with the. They're establishing their objective on the first, in the first place.

Dr Barry, 15m 7s:

It's helping them really to to see where they really ideally want to be, and it takes away all of the obstacles, because it's not about should, or if it's about when, then I see so number one build rapport. Number two 20-year question slash establish objectives uh, yeah, because then you're able to overcome them, because anything like that is then a reference to what they've laid out, plus the 20 year question gives me how they're motivated. There's a meta program called Direction Filter. Many people are motivated by what it is they want to achieve Right, and many people are motivated by what they don't want. So I don't want to be poor, I don't want to be, I don't want to be broke, I don't want to be living in a dump, versus I want to be wealthy, I want a beautiful home, I want this. The result is the same, right, the building might be the same, but their motivation is they don't want to be poor, they don't want to be sad, they don't want to be down, and their motivation is I want this, I want that, I want the other. It's the same with dentistry, and when they answer that question, they're telling me how they're motivated away from or towards, or a mixture, and so when I present part of rapport is being more like the other person, so I'm very careful to not translate what they say. I'll give you a simple example. A patient's been thinking about whitening and they turn around and they go. You know what? I've been thinking about whitening my teeth, because I really don't want to have yellow teeth. I don't want to be embarrassed Now if I pop up and go oh so you want to have nice white teeth and you want to be feeling confident. The whitening process is the same, but I've completely broken rapport. I've translated it into Mr Towards and I've used words that they didn't use and they're like well, because then they have to think well, does that mean the same? Whereas what I do is exactly what they said. So let me say this back to you so I've got it right you don't want to have yellow teeth and you don't want to be embarrassed. No, I don't want that. Perfect, then I've got a couple of solutions and if it's something you'd like to find out about, I can present those to you today. So it's super important that you're listening to what they're saying and you're using their words. That's rapport. The question releases how they're motivated, and that means that they are much more excited about the prospect of doing dentistry with you, because you're using their direction filter whether it's a way or towards and you're using their words. So it's actually there's quite a lot to learn around what is actually a really simple thing, which is ask a good question and just use the words that they're using. Bosh done.

Dr James, 17m 50s:

You know, it kind of reminds me of that book. What is that guy called? Who is the, the former FBI investigator, and he's written books on communication. What's his name? V? Oh, that's going to annoy the heck out of me. You know what we can. Let's just let's leave us trying to figure this out. Don't split the difference, isn't it? Don't split the Chris Voss. Chris Voss, there we go. Chris Voss, we got there. I love that guy. He's fantastic. It kind of reminds me of his book Don't Split the Difference, because one of the big takeaways from the things that I heard him say even in those sorts of situations, when you're trying to do these costage negotiations, you're selling yourself, so to speak. And he was saying like one of the most effective things that he ever learned was, number one, listening. And even though that sounds obvious, it's underrated, it's still one of the biggest skills. You have to listen to every word they say. It takes energy to do that, by the way. Um, and then the second thing he was saying was like if somebody says something and you don't know what they mean or you want to confirm where they're coming from, literally just repeat it back to them with an intonation, literally repeat it, repeat it back to them literally repeat it back to them.

Dr Barry, 19m 12s:

I saw a good training video of his and that's what he did and he literally I watched, I watched the conversation he had with a woman. I was like, oh man, he's just literally he's going to just repeat back and this is going to be awkward. Oh my God. The woman literally fell in love with him because he just repeated back and she would just continue to open up was a master. It was actually a master class because it was on the app master class single guys and girls.

Dr James, 19m 40s:

Hope you take a note right there. No, I'm kidding anyway. Numero three what we got from number three uh.

Dr Barry, 19m 48s:

So it's about it really is being patient centric. It it's truly thinking about that patient, it's not about the dentistry. You know, I got into trouble recently when I did a presentation and I said, look, nobody cares about your dentistry so long as it's good enough. And I didn't mean that literally right. What I followed it up with is it matters more the journey followed it up with. Is it matters more the journey. They care more about how the dentistry is delivered than the dentistry itself. So those two things have to go together. Of course they care about your dentistry it has to be good enough but most dentists will spend thousands and thousands of pounds on education and toys to do more dentistry and not spend much time, energy and effort or money on educating themselves in communication and the patient journey. And I think that if we got our patient journey right well, I don't think I know I quadrupled my turnover with this attitude and that is focusing on the patient journey, focusing on the patient's experience meant that we, as a single-handed guy and I've said this on your podcast before, as a single-handed dentist, three and a half days a week, just under 1.1 million turnover and that was eight years ago. And when I get my clients, my associates and my practice owners that I work with to focus on the patient journey, they end up doubling their income. Jenny Rawls was a great example. We were talking about her when you were on Simon's retreat. She has doubled her yield by focusing on the patient journey, not the dentistry, because the dentistry then comes. So make it patient centric, ask really great questions, build rapport, spend time on the relationship. Don't let them go downstairs and just give them a piece of paper. You know. Present that to them. For me, with my new patient examinations, we never present treatment on the same day. It's split at least a week, maybe two weeks, and so we have time to bring them back and sit down and talk about them. And that is what makes me a five grand a day dentist, because we have to do between four and six grand, which is the target between to do between four and six every day. We have to present four to six grand, at least four to six grand's worth of dentistry every day. And so we have a systemized, beautiful approach to it where the diaries zone, so that there's time for everything, and that way we are generating the interest and generating the value. And then in the other times I'm actually producing the dentistry and then I'm nurturing the relationship. So my opening gambit, my upfront contract with a patient, when I first meet them, is quite simple and I say, look, I've only got one thing to do. And they kind of look at me because they've never had this kind of chat before and I go super simple my aim is to knock your socks off. My aim is to make this the best dental experience you've ever had. And when I do, I'm going to ask you to do two things for me. Would that be okay? And they go, yes, but inquisitively I'm going to say, right, so when I make sure this is the best, by the way, when, not if, if we use the word if it puts a seed of doubt in their head and in your head of whether you're capable of doing something. If I call you, he's never going to call, is he? If I knock your socks off, that leaves a possibility, subconsciously, that you might not. So it's not. If it's when I knock your socks off, I'm going to ask you to do two things and that's when I'm asking them to refer, recommend, give me five-star Google reviews. So the language that we use is not just putting the patient first and being patient-centric. Tip number four is be mindful of your words. The words that you use can weave magic. That's where hypnotherapy comes from. You know, we can hypnotize somebody to have dentistry without any local anesthetic. I mean, I don't know why you'd want to. Personally, as a master hypnotherapist qualified, I've never done that. I will never do that. I will use words that weave magic in order for my patients to feel at their most comfortable and for me to be doing the dentistry in the shortest period of time. So I'm as productive as possible, but I'm not going to hypnotize. But if you think about the power of words as possible, but I'm not going to hypnotize. But if you think about the power of words, it's incredible of what we can be seed planting and the way that we can be helping our patients be at their best, feel the best and make their best choices. So learn some language skills. Learn language skills, learn communication, learn to build rapport, learn some of these simple things that we've never been taught, we just do naturally. And when you met that person and it was like, oh my God, I've known him for 20 years, that's because you used similar words accidentally, you have similar movements accidentally Start making those things on purpose and it works with everybody. Bloody brilliant, super simple.

Dr James, 24m 49s:

Well, it's why Cialdini calls his other book pre-suasion. So he's taken persuasion and played around with it, hasn't he? And he's like most of a good 70, 60% of the persuasiveness, you know where we genuinely feel we can help someone, of course, because persuasiveness is just communication isn't it. If you genuinely feel you can help someone, that's fine. Fine, you know you've got to speak to their subconscious, don't you so, anyway, it's why, uh, that book's called persuasion, isn't it? Because he's like right, but an ounce of pre-work is worth a pound of post-work.

Dr Barry, 25m 21s:

You want to do a lot of your persuading in the pre-work before you even start getting down to the nitty-gritty absolutely, and that's that's key, and that's where many people not just and that's where many people not just dentists that's where many people miss out or don't understand because they've never been taught it. And so once you're taught that, once you understand that and you start to play with it and it is a game we just get better and better right Once you start playing that game and I do say dentistry is a game it's a game of knocking people's socks off, and I happen to be doing dentistry game. It's a game of knocking people's socks off and I happen to be doing dentistry. Ultimately, the dentistry comes in ultimately being secondary to the relationship and everything else, because if I get the relationship right, get the communication right, it enables me to do even more dentistry. People want more dentistry.

Dr James, 26m 6s:

I remember in uni we had one lecture one time one year on communication, and I remember thinking to myself I know how to talk up the patients. I'll be fine, just be easy. You, just as long as you have the gift of the gab and you're a cool guy, you're good, right. That was genuinely what I thought, and this lecture was so basic. It was like you can't say dental caries, you can't say dental carries, you can't say treatment for dental carries, you have to say filling. Oh right, okay, cool stuff like that. I know I'm like, wow, there's so much to this. It's crazy you mentioned to me off camera you actually have a live day coming up on this soon. Have I got this right, Barry?

Dr Barry, 26m 43s:

yes, yes, yes, yes, November 23rd, it's a Saturday. I ran one in July, Birmingham, and it was bloody great. So I'm running the same day. This one's called Unlocking Sales Through Service and it's basically the stuff that we've been talking about, but in London and it's on a Saturday. It's a full day's training with me where I will teach you all of these bits and then get you to have a little play in a very safe environment with you know, to sit and have a conversation with another person, so that you can kind of just try before you buy, you know, give it a go, before you actually use it in in your surgery or in your studio, whatever you call them. Um and so, yeah, London, 23rd of November, it's going to be brilliant If you go, uh, we'll, we'll post a link for this because actually this podcast is coming out beginning of November. I have an early bird deal up until the end of October. But anybody through this podcast, anybody through Dentists Who Invest, I will leave that page open so that you get it at the early bird discount rate up until the 22nd. So come and join me 23rd of November. I promise that I will knock your socks off and then I will share some bits that will massively elevate what it is you're doing at work, even if you've been in dentistry for 30 years and you just fancy being able to communicate more clearly and have more high value treatment taken up. Come and spend the day with me and I'll knock your socks off.