Dr James, 0s:

So let's start with what didn't change. So there were no changes to employees national insurance. There were no changes to income tax rates or thresholds. Vat was not touched. Corporation tax rates have not been changed. They've been left as they are until 2030. No changes to R&D tax rates. No changes to full expensing of capital costs. So a lot that wasn't touched. Um, this was a budget that was supposed to put more pounds into working people's pockets and improve living standards. That cost has to come from somewhere and it's come from business owners or people who are deemed to not be workers. So what's changed? The kind of key areas that have changed. I won't talk too much about it, but national insurance is going up for employers, so practices employing staff now have an increase of 1.2 on their national insurance bill. To put that in perspective, if a practice has an employee earning £30,000, it will now cost them an additional £1,000 per year on average. That eats into practices' profits, cash and potentially valuations as well, because now practice profits are lower. As I said, I won't talk too much about that because I know you might have something on that on the next podcast, James. But capital gains, that's the other big thing that we definitely thought was going to be touched. It's been talked about for a long time. We were a lot of my clients were worried it would be aligned with income tax. That has not happened, thank goodness. We have seen what is, by comparison, a modest increase, although those increases are significant for people who are selling their businesses. So the rates have gone up from 10 to 18 and 20 to 24 for business assets. For practice owners, we have this thing called business disposal relief, where you can sell and make a gain of one million pound in a lifetime and that qualifies for a lower rate of tax, which was 10 percent. We were very worried that could go up to 40 percent, which would have really impacted the mergers and acquisitions market of buying and selling businesses. They did not do that. Um, they have said that it will go up to 14 from april 2025 and then, uh, from 18 to in april 2026. So, that's not good, but it could have been a lot worse can I just jump in and just ask something about capital gains specifically?

David, 2m 46s:

was that with them as in, not the BADR that you were just describing, but capital gains, what you were talking about a second ago? So, from 10 to 18 percent and 20 to 24 percent, those are the new, not the thresholds, but the margins. Now, yes, that's the tax rate. Is that effective immediately? Is that effective as of today, or is that effective as of the new tax year?

Dr James, 3m 8s:

I believe it is immediate. I believe it is immediate.

David, 3m 12s:

Yeah, no, I was just curious on that one because I wasn't sure, because it makes sense that it's immediate, because with those sorts of assets obviously they're a lot more liquid than a dental practice.

Dr James, 3m 23s:

Exactly. There's a lot more scope, but it was effective from the 30th of October. So yeah, straight straight away. And to clarify the categories, with capital assets, you've got residential property, which is the rates haven't changed there, so something you live in, business assets, which talks about, and then everything else he thinks, like your crypto, your stocks and shares. All of that is, as you say, very liquid, so they increase that immediately understood. Yeah, curious, just curious on that one no, it's a good, it's a good question anyway. Do the thing that we now have is increasing stamp duty for second homes. Um, so the rates have gone from, uh, three percent to five percent. So that some affect some of our clients, obviously our property portfolios more, more stamp duty to pay, and the nil rate bands have been dropped as well. Um, that was effective the day after, so, again, that that's a big change as well. The other thing that's significant and we talked about this in our predictions podcast was pensions. We thought they'd go after it. It's a big area for them, an obvious place to collect taxes, and they have gone for pensions. What they haven't changed is the tax-free sum is not changed, so that you can still draw 25% tax-free. However, if you have a pension as part of your estate now, in the past it used to be passed down to your beneficiaries tax-free that is now subject to inheritance tax, which is massive.

David, 5m 0s:

Can I just ask a quick question on that as well, because I believe and you'll know this better than me there was some stipulations or there are some regulations around when it was passed on tax free. It was something to do with the age of 75 and, whether or not you crystallized it, have I got that right? Yeah, between 65 and 75 were the two kind of key dates that were whether it crystallizes tax free or not. But now it's, it's simply part of your estate. Okay, so it's universally always part of your estate. There's never any situation in which it has passed on to your kids no, it's brought down into your estate now right, okay, all of the time. wow, okay, there we are, because I was saying this to someone the other day and it was like they'd done away with the lta, didn't they right? And and that was one way of raiding the pension piggy bank, wasn't it? And they've kind of brought this back, which is effectively another way of capitalizing on all the money that's tied up in pensions. So it's just an interesting perspective, I suppose, to look at it from that point of view.

Dr James, 6m 4s:

So it's just an international perspective, I suppose. To look at it from that point of view, yes, and it makes sense. There's a lot of money in pensions, so they needed $40 billion. This is an obvious place to go for it. Timing-wise, you obviously have to wait for those taxes to be collected through inheritance, but you know it's what they've gone for.

David, 6m 25s:

A slightly covert way of bringing back the Lifetime Alliance is another perspective or another way of looking at it, because I was I was writing this comment on facebook the other day and I was like, oh, they're going to bring the lta back someday. And then I thought about it and I was like they kind of have done that with what they've changed recently. But anyway and maybe this is a question for later or if there's a quick answer, we could jump into it just now, because I know you were in full flow there is there any way to mitigate that whatsoever?

Dr James, 6m 46s:

potentially. Um. So the the question a lot of people think as well should I still be putting in? Uh, well, yes, because you know it's. It's a tax deduction for your income or your company's profit. So pension contributions are still a tax write-off, so there's still an incentive to put into pensions, whereas if you put in into, say, buy-to-let properties just as an example, that's not a tax deduction, but pensions still are a tax write-off. So they want to encourage us to still put into pensions. The question then becomes and it's an interesting question because there are many more budgets to come and let's see what happens but as things stand at the moment, there'll have to be some kind of calculation done on an individual basis. But should you draw from your pension and pay income tax or leave it for inheritance tax? So we know inheritance tax is going to be 40% above the no rate band. So we know inheritance tax is going to be 40% above the no rate band. Most dentists, their house plus their assets, I would have thought would have used it. But if you don't have sufficient income to use your basic rate band, there could be an argument to draw some during lifetime and pay 20% tax if you're not using your basic rate band, but it's something that IFAs and accountants are going to have to assess on a case-by-case basis.

David, 8m 8s:

And I'm just wondering you might have said this is that effective, as often you tax share?

Dr James, 8m 13s:

Is that correct, that one? I actually don't have a date in front of me.

David, 8m 20s:

Sorry, James, I'll have to confirm that one later. No, it's cool, we can fact check it later. No, that's later. No, it's cool, fact-check can it later. No, that's okay, that's okay, no sweat anyway. So I was just uh keen to ask a few questions on that one. Hope you don't mind me jumping in as and when you're saying he's just rather fresh in everybody's head. But you're in full flow there, I believe yes, no problem at all.

Dr James, 8m 36s:

Um, so what else? That on private school fees, that was confirmed as well. We didn't think that they would change that, but they have said that that's definitely going ahead. Um, so 20 for a lot more people. I think the impact of that is going to be I think people will just not put them in. I think parents who've got kids in private school probably won't pull them out. But if you were on the fence whether to put them in and now it's 20 more expensive, potentially less will be put in to private education. Those who can afford will just pay it, obviously. So I'm just going through my notes. Another thing that they changed, which is significant but hopefully won't catch too many people, is inheritance tax on business assets. So, as an example, if I have a dental practice and god forbid I'm hit by a bus and it passes down to my children, then before the budget, that was, uh, well, before April 2026, it 2026, it would have been tax-free because there was an exemption for passing down businesses to children. That was a tax relief that was available. It's called business property relief. That's now been dropped to 50% and it's only relevant where sometimes I don't want to say complicated, but thorough tax planning with restructures and we always have to make clients aware of inheritance tax should anything happen while we're doing a restructure. And this is an additional thing that if we were to, as I say, have an incident, then those businesses are now passed. So shares in a dental practice or a dental practice will be taxed at 50% if you pass it down to your children, and that's significant. That is significant.

David, 10m 32s:

Well, that's particularly significant because, if I've understood that correctly, you've got the full value of the business and it's being taxed at 50%.

Dr James, 10m 39s:

so 50% of the value of the business is taxed 50% of the value 50% of the business is taxed at 40%. So the person receiving and the estate will have to come up with this tax bill when businesses are passed down.

David, 10m 53s:

And, depending on the size of the business, that might be a huge sum of money. Right, it's only hundreds of thousands of pounds. Obviously, businesses are fairly illiquid, you know, and you've got to come up with that money. There's a certain timeframe. You have to come up with the money whenever it's inheritance tax isn't there?

Dr James, 11m 9s:

Yes, it's yeah, there's not a lot of time to pay it. So I think there'll be all sorts of financial arrangements and loans, tax loans, to sort that sort of stuff out, because, you're right, the cash won't be there in the business and if it is, it's added to the value anyway. So, yeah, st is it's added to the value anyway.

David, 11m 32s:

So, yeah, sticky one that yes, needs looking at carefully. There we are interesting anyway. Was there? Was there more? I see you've got your piece of paper in front of you yeah, I can my kind of summary on this what?

Dr James, 11m 40s:

what does it mean for dentistry? Um, so I think principles will be the most uh, effective big part. And so we've got additional national minimum wage increases, national insurance. So less cash, less profit in the practices for principals, potentially additional pressure from principals to associates to look at the associate splits. I know that's not very popular to say, but I think there'll be more conversations around that. It's not for me to comment on what's right for each practice, but I think that will be happening in the background.

David, 12m 18s:

Let's give discussing that one a wide berth right, Because that's a controversial one, isn't it? Very much so.

Dr James, 12m 26s:

I think practice valuations are going to come down as a result of those increasing costs, which is just a natural consequence. There's very little that can be done about that unless savings are made elsewhere. Another area is potentially and I say potentially, I've not seen it yet, but we could see an increase in lab fees. Labs have obviously got increased wages costs and that could be passed on, so we might see an increase in lab fees because labs have obviously got increased wages costs and that could be passed on, so we might see lab fees going up. But, as I say, I've not seen that in uh, as of as of yet. It's still quite fresh. Um, I think the in terms of the job public well, not job public, but business owners and non-workers will have less disposable income to spend on private cosmetic dentistry. Um, I was speaking with the head of health care at Lloyds bank, after the budget, and that was their prediction that private dentistry will be affected most, not the general side, but cosmetic is probably in for a change and a drop for practices. But let's, but let's see and, yeah, it's a, it's an interesting one. That's. That's kind of where I think we are so those would be the biggies.

David, 13m 37s:

That's a high level summary. Well, listen, thank you so much for that, David. Hot and fast takes, and you know what I? I don't know, I had a few questions surrounding that. I was just going to ask, uh, just uh, while we've got the uh, you know what I've got, yeah, and what have you for the benefit of the audience? And just while I'm doing that, guys, it is important to remember that this Q and A session this evening. So if anybody has specific questions for David, feel free to pop them in the chat now and when we come to the q a section of the webinar shortly. Well, what that will mean is we'll be able to give a specific answer to each and every one first come, first serve basis. So as soon as questions appear in the chat, we'll read them out in exactly that order whilst we have some time to see them. So, David, I know we obviously covered the ins and outs a high level summary of the budget and what it means for dentists. Let's, let's try to make this a little more granular, shall we? And more actionable for the people who are in the audience. Let's say that you were talking specifically to a dental associate. Let's do that's a little bit of fun here. We could do associates and we can do principles, and we actually we can maybe do people who are thinking about band practice soon as well. Actually, that might be a third category as well. Let's say, your clients who are associates. What are you saying to them by way of not advice, because we want to be a little careful about that word, but in terms of suggestions as to how they might protect themselves or how they might mitigate the effects of the budget over the coming months? So let's say, you're having that conversation with associates. How does that look? Is there anything you would say to them specifically?

Dr James, 15m 9s:

It's a good question. I have to be careful not to upset anybody, so I'll talk on the perspective of a bank. So if an associate is buying is midway through a practice acquisition, does this change anything for them? Has the value of that practice now changed? That's a really good question. I think that I don't have an answer, but it'd be a question that I'd be thinking myself as an associate. Has it changed? Have the bank been asking for changes in valuations? I don't think so, because the banks work on a process and once it's approved, it's approved. I can't see them reassessing applications if you've not put your offer in yet. Potentially there could be scope to ask a question. Or has the EBITDA changed now with these changes? I think the answer is probably yes. If I'm being honest, that might upset principal listeners.

David, 16m 6s:

I'm sorry for that, but I think it's potentially fair to say Awesome, so that would be the main one.

Dr James, 16m 9s:

Anything, anything else? Uh well, interest rates are going to come down, so that's what we're hearing anyway. So the the practice buying market is becoming a little bit more buoyant, so there are potentially more potential bidders for practices, and so that that could be a counterweight to that. Um, I'm just an observer. I don't, you know, decide what happens in the market, but it'll be interesting to see brilliant.

David, 16m 33s:

So that's what we'd say to associates and we kind of we kind of wrap the would-be practice owners in there as well. Associates and would-be practice owners wrapped into one. Do you think that's fair to say when we covered just then?

Dr James, 16m 44s:

well, it's, it's. It affects both of them, doesn't it?

David, 16m 47s:

yeah, okay, fair enough. And how about principles? Is there anything you'd say specifically to them to be wary of or to protect themselves against the effects of what's happened?

Dr James, 16m 59s:

I don't think there's any room to do anything now. It's it's been targeted at business owners and they fall into that category. Um, I can't. Can fees be increased? Is that possible? You know every practice will know what scope there is. Um, if you look at the general market, if you go to linkedin and you have a look around, a lot of companies are making redundancies because of the impacts of national insurance. It's significant for large workforces, so there will be an effect of this sort of thing. So every practice will have to look at what cost can be saved, what increases can be done in revenue. So, yeah, that's probably it, good stuff, Vivek.

David, 17m 44s:

Let me just get this so I can read this a little closer to my face. Vivek Chardana shout out. Vivek Chardana has said in the chat the only thing they didn't read was ISIS. I guess there's some good news in there somewhere. Do you think that that's what's your predictions on that front, David? Or why do you think that was the case? Why do you think ISIS are sacred, so to speak? Why do you think they didn't go there?

Dr James, 18m 12s:

I'm glad they didn't, but they probably got what they needed from pension. If I'm honest with you, I think it's a massive area, so they probably got what they needed from pensions. If I'm honest with you, I think it's a massive area, so they probably got what they needed. They don't want to piss too many people off, I suppose, if I can put it that way.

David, 18m 25s:

Well, you know what? There's actually an interesting factoid on that ISAs are relatively young relative to pensions, and by that what I mean is they've been around for what? 15, 20 years, something along those lines.

Dr James, 18m 37s:

Yeah is.

David, 18m 39s:

They've been around for what? 15, 20 years, something along those lines. Yeah, so if you think about the cash that's tied up in pensions nationally versus isis, it's gonna. It's apparently it's a multiple of like eight or nine times. So if they're gonna, if they're gonna, piss people off pardon my french right you know they're gonna go in for a penny, in for a pound, right, they might as well go where the money is. Uh, and certainly that's the, the, the, the theory anyway, as to why governments tend to prefer raiding the pension pots versus isis. So just just food for thought sort of thing, or certainly an interest in theory as to how much grounds it has. Well, it's difficult to know without actually being in the room when they decide these things, but certainly it makes sense when you think about it like that yes, I agree brilliant. Someone sent me a question in the chat. I don't know this is a question so much as a statement, but I'll read it out anyway. If our so this is a comment from anjad ali. Shout out, anjad ali. If our NHS revenue 49% of total revenue, can we use the employment allowance of 10,500? Oh, this is good right, because there is some. They gave some wiggle room to NHS employers, didn't they?

Dr James, 19m 46s:

David from memory no, it's not to NHS employees, it's the opposite, it's private practices oh right, my bad if you are in if you're in receipt of NHS funding or government money, you don't get the employment allowance. Um revenue is one indicator as to whether you are in receipt. So it's the wording is if most of your work is from non-government money, now revenue is a good indicator and I would think that 49 of revenue. I'd say yes, go for it on that basis because I NHS. So before I say that, because the key is how much work do you do? And if you're doing 49 of your revenue on NHS, I think NHS work. I think that would would mean you're doing less as an overall business. You're probably doing more on private. You take more time with private. That's horrible to say, but you might you know the actual time you spend on it. You take more time to do the private work, so I think you're okay with that.

David, 20m 51s:

Yes, and you know what? I shot another podcast recently with Mr Jonny Minford. So shout out that podcast everybody. It should be released today, today being the 6th of November 2024. And that covers the budget, but specifically what it means for principals. And Johnny made an interesting point. He was talking about NHS praxis and he said right well, you've got this situation and we're definitely not meant to portray some sort of gloom and doom situation here in this podcast, just for clarity. But he said they find themselves in an interesting place. It'd be interesting to hear your take on this, David. They find themselves in an interesting place because obviously the issue with NHS is that you can't just put the prices up. You've got your band one, band two, band three, but your employer's national insurance contributions have went up, so you're getting squeezed at this end, but you can't necessarily accommodate for that at the other side. And then there was what was the other thing that you were talking about just a second ago? I believe there is a little bit of wiggle room if you're a private clinic, isn't there? With regards to it's, the threshold at which you pay employer's contributions has went up, something along those lines, isn't it the threat? The threshold is, the threshold is went down, but the percentage there's. There was some sort of mitigate mitigation. There wasn't there.

Dr James, 22m 5s:

I got that right national choices both across the board always so.

David, 22m 10s:

Whenever we were talking just a second ago about the private side of things and there being a little bit of wiggle room there, well the private.

Dr James, 22m 17s:

So we'll get more of the. So the employment allowance, which is a deduction off your national insurance, was 5,000. That's gone up to 10,500.

David, 22m 24s:

Yes, that's the one.

Dr James, 22m 25s:

The private practices will get more deducted off their national insurance bill? I think Amjad just asked another good question about the increase in national insurance per employee and it's conservatively 650 to 850 per employee and more in national insurance per employee and it's conservatively 650 to 850 per employee. More in national insurance. What is the average.

David, 22m 44s:

And just to read that question out what average increase will the increased national contribution have on businesses per employee, ie what's the increased cost per employee?

Dr James, 22m 56s:

In national insurance. It's 650 to 850 more national insurance per employee.

David, 23m 2s:

Right, there we are. Okay, brilliant, okay, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Well, listen, guys, if there is anybody else who wants to ask any questions about anything and everything to do with the budget related to, well, facts or things that we need to know, or what's changed or what we can do over these coming months to mitigate that somewhat, well, now is an absolutely glorious opportunity to do that. Just what everybody's thinking of, some questions. If we just go back to the changes to capital, actually let's talk about should we talk about Badr? Uh, briefly, David and how that's moved around, because it's went from 10 to 14 next tax year and to 18 the year after that.

Dr James, 23m 44s:

Right, yeah, it was an absolute anxiety cause of this song. We have clients who trying to sell their businesses this year, their practices, and everybody was rushing to do it on the 30th of October because we were terrified that it would go from 10% to 40%. That's a massive tax increase. So we were worried it would be effective immediately any increase, because historically capital gains tax has been immediate any kind of increases. On that, they haven't done that. Yeah, they've said it's going to go up from April. So those who were selling have got that breathing space now to, to not panic about that. It's an extra four percent if you're selling next year and then up to 18, as you say there after. Could have been a lot, a lot worse, which potentially is what they wanted to do is to scare people and then just take what we're given as a yeah, quietly, which everybody has. So the people that were selling are all quite happy with that, so it's not caused too much of a problem gotcha.

David, 24m 48s:

And how is what you're saying to your clients changed with regards to pensions based off the budget? Are you saying, guys, business as usual, keep up your contributions, or have you switched that around a little bit?

Dr James, 25m 1s:

It's not an IFA, so I don't give that kind of advice on what to put in and what not to. From a tax side it's still tax deductible, so it's still encouraged from a tax perspective.

David, 25m 12s:

Gotcha, and even whenever it comes to the inheritance tax side of things. Have you had any phone calls over the last few days, people wanting clarity on that?

Dr James, 25m 22s:

No, I think people are still digesting it. I think the first port of call will be the IFAs, and then after that we kind of get calls together and talk it through. So nothing as of yet.

David, 25m 33s:

Nothing as of yet. Okay, that's an interesting one and that has huge ramifications, because obviously that is a big, big, big, big, big shift. Whenever it comes to how much tax is somebody going to be paying, so big conversation to have. Whenever it comes to succession planning Anything else in the budget we should know about? David?

Dr James, 25m 52s:

So rates, that's another thing. So business rates are going up. So the discount from 75% will drop to 40%. That will mainly affect private practices because NHS practices can recover the rates bill. So that's more pressure on practices. So it's not good for practice owners.

David, 26m 15s:

I see and you mentioned something earlier about business expenditures still being tax deductible was that ever in jeopardy? Was that something that they were tossing around?

Dr James, 26m 27s:

no, no, it was just to clarify that it hasn't changed. Uh, yeah, it was, it was never. We never thought it would go yeah.

David, 26m 35s:

Has there ever been a time where that hasn't been the case out of curiosity, or have they all?

Dr James, 26m 39s:

yes, it has, and it has been limited to a certain figure as well. So it has been a million pounds a year, five hundred thousand pounds a year. So they do play with it, but we weren't.

David, 26m 51s:

We didn't think it was on the radar this year that's crazy, because I just take that for granted, that that's the case. That makes a big difference. That makes a big difference, does that?

Dr James, 27m 3s:

Cash flow for cash flow.

David, 27m 5s:

So that's not even that's not even been something that's been around forever. That's something that they've brought in. When did they bring that in? Or when, when, when did it reach its current situation, where it's just as much? You can spend as much as you like on tax deductible things really well, providing you don't bankrupt yourself.

Dr James, 27m 21s:

Of course I'll have to get my history book out, but in the in the 20 years I've been doing this, it has uh changed a lot. I think in the last 10 years it changed two, three times.

David, 27m 29s:

So no way, there we go. Fun history fact there. Okay, cool. Another question for amjad uh, what director salary should we know? Take in light. Oh, this is a flipping brilliant question actually. What director's salary should we know?

Dr James, 27m 47s:

I take in light of the threshold being reduced yes, I need to do my figures to give you a proper answer than that?ait's on my to-do list because I have to review everybody's wages for all our clients and it's it's a job for next week for me. So I'm sorry, Amjad if it's the Amjad that I know, just give me a call next week and we'll talk about that.

David, 28m 8s:

Let's see if we can get Amjad's last name here. The only thing about Zoom is Amjad Ali. Amjad Ali.

Dr James, 28m 14s:

okay, I have an Amjad Ali that we act from. Perhaps it's the same person. Give me a call next week.

David, 28m 18s:

Zoom slightly truncates the name, so I can't quite see until I hover my mouse over. Well, can you give us a Maybe? How about this Specific figures? We're going to have to get the calculator out for David, which is fine, but am I right in saying that in likelihood it's looking?

Dr James, 28m 42s:

like people are going to have to reduce the proportion of their income they take as a salary right and maybe a bit more dividends, or at least from a tax perspective, potentially. So the benefit of being on the full personal allowance £12,570 was about £200 in favour. So I'm doing it off the back of a fag packet now, sorry about this, guys. I'm doing it off the back of a fag packet now. Sorry about this, guys. So if it's gone up by 1.2%, that's £150 more. You're probably still £50 better, leaving it at the 12570. That's your answer. So I wouldn't be changing it, I'd leave it.

David, 29m 12s:

If you're taking the full personal balance. Yeah, Because you can get carried away with taking dividends out of your business and not make any national insurance contributions, right, but then you don't get your state pension later, so it's always advised to pay a bit, right that's correct, and what you pay is a tax deduction for the company as well, so you might pay a little bit of national insurance, but the company saves 19 to 25 corporation tax, so correct yeah, no, I've heard that being the logic. It's like you can get too carried away and paying the absolute minimum tax bill, can't you with as in with regards to taking the biggest portion of dividends that you can, so that reduces your overall, uh, tax liability, but then what that means is the national insurance thing can become an issue, so you always want to pay a little bit of that. At least that's what I've come across, anyway, in previous podcasts. But anyway, that's probably a conversation for another day. Okay, okay, cool. Anything else we should be aware of as dentists uh, I think we've covered most things there.

Dr James, 30m 10s:

Yeah, I don't think there's no, nothing more for me on that what?

David, 30m 15s:

what are the farmers kicking off about? Let's take a little bit of a tangent. They're not happy. I saw them on the news the other day. Who's sorry.

Dr James, 30m 22s:

Farmers, farmers. Thank you, ireland, I've not seen.

David, 30m 27s:

Sorry, I've not Something to do with inheritance tax.

Dr James, 30m 31s:

Well, that's what we talked about before the business property relief, so agricultural. So farms also used to be passed down with inheritance tax reliefs. Those have been changed as well and that's a problem. That's a bigger problem because farmers tend to pass on their businesses to family. It's more common for farms to be a generational thing, if you think about it and they're getting. Yeah, it used to be tax free and now it is, there's 50% tax charge, so they've got this problem of inheritance tax on giving the farms to their kids. It's a big problem for them.

David, 31m 5s:

Actually, that's pretty much what I was saying earlier really, with regards to them having to pay 40% tax on 50% of the value of the business. So obviously, if it's a farm, it's not something you can shift uh, very, very fast. And what I mean by that is then you obviously have to, you have this huge tax liability and you don't even necessarily, you can't just sell half the business to generate it. You know, it's not really how it works. Businesses are a bit like houses. You can't just sell a room in the house and unlock a little bit of equity, it's the whole thing or nothing, and it doesn't happen overnight. So I guess that's why they're unhappy it is surprising for exactly that reason.

Dr James, 31m 43s:

It's a very illiquid asset. It's a very illiquid asset and you know it's it's. We need farmers, don't? We need food and and meat. So I I am yeah, it's a funny one.