Dr James, 0s:

August slash. September is a pretty painful time of the year for us dentists because our indemnity fees are due and those can tally up to quite the expense. So certainly anything that can save on that front and ensure that we're getting the best deal is helpful, and that's why I have Mr Adam O'Keeffe joining us today from All Med Pro Insurance Specialists. He's here to share with us what us dentists need to know in order to save some money, get the best deal, ensure that our cover is adequate for all eventualities and make this time of year as least painful as possible. I'm also happy to share that there is free verifiable CPD associated with this podcast episode. Whenever you finish the episode, all you have to do is click the link in the podcast description. It'll take you right through the Dentists Who Invest website. You'll be able to complete a short questionnaire and, once passed, you fill in your reflections and we'll go ahead and email over to you your verifiable CPD certificate, which is entirely free. What that means is this podcast episode will be able to contribute towards your verifiable CPD hours during this learning cycle. Something super topical today, which is indemnity and this is the time of year where us dentists start to think about it again and I've got my good compadre, good friend, Adam O'Keeffe, sat with me today, head of AllMedPro. We're going to be talking about indemnity and what you need to know to get the best deal, because everybody feels like they're paying too much right. It's a common gripe. Us dentists love a bargain right and that's fine. That's okay. What do you reckon, Adam?

Adam, 1m 36s:

Yeah, well, you certainly do.

Dr James, 1m 45s:

And yeah, it's that time of year July, august, September the peak of indemnity renewals. So yeah, good time to have this conversation. For sure let's do it interested to know, and it might be, there's probably this might have an obvious answer. I'm gonna ask you in any way, why is it that around about now there is a peak? Is it because this is when all the fds are sorry that well, yeah, the fds go into work, right, and then this is, it's like the renewal of the academic year, it's like a knock-on effect from that right.

Adam, 2m 6s:

Yeah, you've got it spot on there. Most of them graduated around this time of year, first job going into work September, october time. So there's a few other times of the year where there's slight peaks January, february but other than that, yeah, this is peak season.

Dr James, 2m 23s:

Interesting. There we go. I'm going to ask another question that might have an obvious answer, but again I won't ask it anyway, because this is always at the top of dentists' minds. Why does it go up so much, almost like exponentially in the first few years, the fee for indemnity, the renewal fee, Adam? Why do dentists typically experience that, at least with some companies?

Adam, 2m 46s:

Well, if we're talking those who've recently qualified, quite often there's a bit more supervision around the first couple of years. So it's staged. The premiums increase In terms of increasing in general terms, which we are seeing many of the indemnity providers increase their rates year on year. The main factor to that will be claims. We have seen claims trends on the up and claims costs on the up over the last. You know well it's year on year. So that's the main driver for premiums going up generically.

Dr James, 3m 16s:

I would guess got a, got a query as well, interesting for the audience. I know that there is a common theme that litigation is going up in dentistry, or at least there was over the last few years. Is that still on the rise or is it kind of leveled off?

Adam, 3m 33s:

I would say it's. It's not, as it's not on the rise as it was, say, four or five years ago. It is leveling off, but claims claims are still very costly, so that's that's. That's where the issue still lies yikes.

Dr James, 3m 47s:

Okay, and naturally that's going to come through in our indemnity bill as a dentist. Well listen, it's a little bit like this if we're going to have to pay for something, let's make sure we're paying for value. So let's cut to the chase. How do us dentists know that we're getting a good deal when it comes to our insurance renewal or our indemnity?

Adam, 4m 11s:

Well, there's a lot of good indemnity providers out there nowadays. In the last 10, 15 years, since 2011,. When we set up, you know, you only had three indemnity providers medical defence organisations and it's kind of moved on quite a bit over the last, over that period. I would say you look beyond sort of the claims occurrence. You look beyond the contract certainty. You look beyond the 24-7 support. That's a very minimum in my opinion. What you should have. You look beyond that. What else can that indemnity provider provide me at my time of need? Is that? You know, know something might hit the press. Do I need PR or reputation protection? You know I'm struggling with, I don't know, mental health, or you know what else can this indemnity provider help me at my time of need? And I think that's that. That's it really. So, yeah, it's getting fair value for what you are paying for and making sure that indemnity provider is on your side.

Dr James, 5m 7s:

I see. So, as a minimum, those would be the things that you would expect. So that's almost like a checklist. And am I right in saying that? Not every? Obviously we're definitely not here to name names, but just out of interest, you know, you know more about the market than me. It's not always a given that every provider provides that stuff. Right that?

Adam, 5m 22s:

every provider provides that stuff, right? No, not all providers offer the occurrence cover and not all providers provide contract certainty. By contract certainty I mean an insurance product with terms and conditions and you know most do offer the 24-7 support. But again, that's the sort of minimum expectation You'd expect to speak to a dental legal advisor if you've got a query or require advice.

Dr James, 5m 45s:

Interested to know, and I feel like you'll know. The answer to this Is there. Is it a bit of a? I don't know if this is an urban myth or not, but some people say that even when you consult your indemnity provider over the phone as in you just have a query or there's some sort of sniff of a complaint and you're speaking to them for advice that that then means that your indemnity goes up.

Adam, 6m 8s:

No. Well, I say no, not for us. We encourage individuals to give us a call at the end of the day if we can get on to something early and stop that sort of going towards a claim or escalating. We want to know sooner rather than later, and I know there is a project I think it's called Projects Theor, where a number of the indemnity providers are within that group and that is one of the main intentions of it not to penalize dentists for using the advice line. So, from our perspective, call us as much as you need and we want to help you out early doors.

Dr James, 6m 45s:

Well, that makes sense, actually, now that you said out loud, because surely that investment of time on the provider's half, on the provider's behalf basically, will mean that they can then subsequently avoid, avoid more of an outlay later yeah, 100, and that's exactly it makes sense, interesting, interesting. okay, one thing we have to talk about, because this is a topic of contention that I still feel. A lot of dentists don't know about this and certainly for the ones that do, they're a little up in arms about it Discretionary versus non-discretionary cover. Maybe it might be nice if we had a bit of an explainer as to what those terms mean.

Adam, 7m 31s:

first of all, yeah, of course I touched on it right back at the beginning, when we first set up in 2011, it was three discretionary providers. Now discretionary cover is Pretty much as it sounds. It's down to the discretion of the provider whether they will cover a claim or not. Now I always say, would you insure your house for fire and then wait till you've had the fire to find out whether you're covered or not? You know, would you cover your car? And then you know you have an accident and it's only at the point or the time of an accident you know whether you're covered or not. I don't think many of us would. So with discretionary cover, there's no sort of terms and conditions, there's no financial ombudsman service at the end of it. So if a claim is repudiated or rejected, then you've got no rights of recourse. So on the flip side, you have contract certainty or a contract of insurance. It has the terms and conditions, it has the. You know. You complete your proposal. You say you're doing x, y and z. They. They cover those for you and any exclusions will be there in black and white, and I mean exclusions. It's normally active activities you haven't declared, so it's. And again, if there are any issues with that claim, you've got. You have got the ombudsman service and the right of recourse.

Dr James, 9m 29s:

So for me it's it's pretty obvious insurance or contract of insurance is the way forward be saying hey, but if I get non-discretionary or sorry, if I get discretionary cover, in which case, well, really, it's not even necessarily the case that they'll give me cover, should there be a claim. I guess what some people might assume is that that is cheaper as a result no, no in some cases.

Adam, 10m 2s:

In some cases it'll be. Yeah, looking at all the indemnity providers, there's not too much between them in terms of what you pay nowadays. There's just different tweaks between what they cover and what they don't.

Dr James, 10m 15s:

I see. So that's not even necessarily the case. Well, it's good to spell that out right, Because you might assume that from listening.

Adam, 10m 23s:

Yeah, of course yeah.

Dr James, 10m 24s:

It's a bit like to use a crude analogy comprehensive cover for your car versus third party. The third party is gonna be cheaper, right, but there's less cover, yeah but it's not even it's not even quite third party, it's just it's because at least third party, you definitely will get something if someone crashes into you.

Adam, 10m 40s:

It's literally yes there's some providers out there who offer claims made insurance which is cheaper. By claims made insurance. That is a contract, certain policy, but what it is is if you it's a bit like your car and home insurance, really whilst the policy's in force, your cover's in force. Once that policy ends, cover ends. So in the scenario of a dentist, you do yesterday your policy's in force, it expires tomorrow. If a claim comes in for treatment performed yesterday and it's expired in a couple of days, you won't be covered. So that is cheaper. Obviously there are ways you can work around that by renewing the policy, going elsewhere, getting run off cover. But yeah, there are cheaper options. But I wouldn't advise taking claims made to insurance unless you really need to.

Dr James, 11m 29s:

Interesting and you just touched upon something that was always a question in my mind. Let's say you have a dentist who has covered their whole career and then all of a sudden they retire. And then let's say they don't renew their GDC. I don't know if that makes a difference or not, but let's say they don't renew their GDC. And let's say they don't renew their GDC I don't know if that makes a difference or not, but let's say they don't renew their GDC. Then let's say a patient, like 10 years later makes a claim against them. Where does that money come from?

Adam, 11m 53s:

Do they chase the dentist?

Dr James, 11m 53s:

up.

Adam, 11m 54s:

Yeah. So if you're on an occurrence policy, as long as that policy was enforced at the time of treatment, no matter how long in the future a claim comes in, you'll be covered. So we'd go back to that policy. So say, a dentist retired in I don't know 2015,. They have a claim. Come in now for treatment performed in 2015, for instance. As long as they have an occurrence policy in place, it should pay out.

Dr James, 12m 18s:

I see, and let's say, they didn't have a current cover in place. Would they subsequently personally be liable or would it be the dental practice?

Adam, 12m 29s:

Yeah, and let's say, if I found any other arrangements. There are things that you can arrange like run off cover with the insurer, but usually that's payable annually after you retire. Some insurers include that standard for maybe three years, five years, ten years. That it depends on the insurer, really. But yeah, if there was no cover in place, these law firms like to chuck mud, so they'll chuck mud wherever it sticks, whether that's the individual dentist, whether that's the dental practice or whether that's any other dentist who have been involved in the treatment.

Dr James, 12m 59s:

So yeah, wow, so they'll. They'll just put their mind to it and try to find a way, basically, yeah, let's see. Okay, interesting. I always had that query in my mind. That was like how did that work?

Adam, 13m 12s:

because you hear about vicarious liability yeah but that's yeah yeah, that's where that would come in. Yeah, often, often, the name above the door would be the dental practice. A claim comes in or a claimant makes a claim, the law firm will look to involve all parties involved in that treatment. Usually, and quite often, it'll fall on the individual's indemnity for a number of reasons. One, if if they do have you know, if, if they are at fault in any way, in any way the practice. Two, if that individual and we do see it goes back overseas, we can't find the indemnity cover, or you know. Or thirdly, maybe even the cover's expired, or you know we touched on it a moment ago if it was on a claim is made basis. They have not renewed it or they've not, you know. That's where the precarious liability might start. A step in interesting.

Dr James, 14m 7s:

So, Adam, if we had to summarize everything, if you were to give everybody who's a listener to this podcast a checklist of the hot fact things that they hot, hot, hot and sharp, hot and fast things sorry is the word. I'm looking for things that they can take away to their indemnity provider to make sure that they're covered and that all the bases I've mentioned in this podcast are. Well, we've got those protected, they're working for the dentist or we've got those in our hands. Shall we say what would that be? What would that be? I know I've put you on the spotlight there, but I feel like you've got that.

Adam, 14m 40s:

I've put you on the spotlight there, but I feel like I've touched on two or three of them already. So, claims occurrence, first and foremost, do they offer that? Yes, great Contract certainty Again, we've touched on that. We said the 24-7 support and advice. Make sure that you know maybe have a look who their dental legal advisors are as well. You know there's some really good legal advisors out there. There's other things you want to look out, like contingent cover, and what I mean by contingent cover is that if you have moved from a discretionary provider to an insurance backed provider, you and the claim come in for the time you were the discretionary provider, if there was. If that discretionary provider repudiated a claim, you're left a you were the discretionary provider. If that discretionary provider repudiated a claim, you're left a bit in the lurch. So a number of the insurers, including ourselves, will provide contingent cover which will pick up any claims repudiated for the period you were with that discretionary provider. So it just gives you that extra sort of security when you're moving, because I know moving from the likes of the mdos, those who provide that that kind of cover sometimes you know you've been with them for 10, 12 years plus and it's quite a big jump and there's some uncertainty and I think just having some extra security around that that move is quite important. What other way words I mean? I think there's also other things, like we offer a 24-7 GP support service. Now it might not sound much, but it's quite popular with our members. If they're ill or a member of their immediate family are ill, they can call up, get some help, get a prescription, you know, get back to work quicker even so. I mean it's just looking at what else they do around the indemnity and how else they can support you at your time of need, pr and reputation. What do they do around that? We know things do get out into the press and your reputation, as you'll know, is vital. So you know what else can they do to support you in that time. We've got a PR team who will step in, help you out and try and turn that what might be which will be negative news into a sort of a positive spin. So those kind of things I'd really look out for.

Dr James, 16m 53s:

That is crazy right that that that can be done. You know that you can kind of, so you, how does that work? Just out of pure curiosity, more than anything else, is it that you, you release press and media outlets that basically says positive things about the dentist.

Adam, 17m 8s:

So you go to the source and you're like, hey, this isn't on, I'm just curious yeah, a lot of it is, and it's way above my pay grade in terms of what they do. But they've got pr teams who will go onto the likes of google and put positive news out there on you and try it almost try and get that negative news down through the ranking. So, yeah, it's, it's quite clever how they do it, but yeah, it's, it's. I think it's a vital thing to have. Some other things are like and it's it's. It's what I think is dentist need, really, or they need to look beyond year one. They need to look like what does next year look like? What does a year after? Something we do is we provide a price guarantee for three years, you know, subject to not having lots of claims, for instance, but I think that gives you just the assurance. You know I'm paying this much next, this year, next year, it's going to be the same the following year and as part of that, we'll then give you two weeks free cover next year, four weeks a year after, and I think I think I think for the type you know, it's not, it's not a small outlay indemnity, so I do believe it. You know you should have some reward for your loyalty. So that's one thing, which it's it's just looking at those additional covers, those, those indemnity providers, can you? We would be more than happy to provide you with an audit of your indemnity to see any money you can save and also give you any advice on your current arrangements. Please call me personally on 07725 580148 or Adam is my email address. We've got a link below which will take you to our proposal and our indemnity offering.