Dr James, 1s:

Hey team, welcome back to Denison Invest Podcast. This is a very contemporaneous podcast, given that I see so much discussion on the group on this very subject. It's on the subject of cash and, with interest rates being so high, our cash products, the lucrative investment that they seem certainly at our first glance. I'm here to help me on this very topic. Today, I have my good friend and IFA, john Doyle. How are you, my friend? I'm very well, thank you, james.

Jon, 24s:

Yeah, very well, yeah, great work, great work Contemporaneous, I love it.

Dr James, 28s:

Contemporaneous? Yeah, I read a dictionary this morning and it was in there somewhere. Yeah, contemporaneous. I like to bust out one night from time to time, but yeah up to date is another way of saying contemporaneous, isn't it? Or relevant to the moment, yeah, yeah.

Jon, 41s:

No, it's good, I like it. Keep working on it.

Dr James, 44s:

Top stuff, top stuff, anyway. So, like I say, this is a podcast that I've wanted to do for a while, but also felt like I needed to do for a while because I see a lot of discussion. So we say, on the fact that, because interest rates are really high, relatively speaking for the moment, when is the last time interest rates were, were or where they are right now? Historically, mid-2000s, 2007, 2008. Oh, and what's the bank of England base rate right this moment? Is it like five and a half?

Jon, 1m 26s:

Yeah, it's 5.5. There was a lot of rumors about it going to 5.5, but they held it at the recent recent bank of England meeting. So it's 5.25 on the 28th of September 2023 for those listening.

Dr James, 1m 42s:

Yes, we got to. We got to. We got to make that hyper clear. Thanks for making that contemporary news. Thank you, john, I'm going to slip that in where I can't. I like that word. Anyway back to what we were saying. Cash products, yeah, so obviously interest rates are really high right now and with the stock market going sideways, shall we say we can. We can get lured into thinking that cash products represent the best investment that is out there, and I suppose we're here today to just discuss when that applies, but also maybe when it doesn't apply and when appearances can be a little bit deceiving, right, John?

Jon, 2m 17s:

Absolutely, and I think that the first thing to say is, whenever we're making financial decisions I'm a real, I've got a really interest in behavioral financial psychology there's a thing called recency bias where we put like we over emphasize the importance of recent events in the way we're thinking about things, and that plays into this whole conversation in a massive way, because we've had two years of sideways markets pretty much markets peaked in December 2021. You know, we're coming up towards two years on that and we are looking at cash rates as though they are exceptionally good, because for most of us in our you know recent history, the last 10 years, cash has been awful. It's been a dead weight. So recent events in the stock market have us feeling a bit flat, emotionally fatigued with it from an investor's point of view, and we're looking at cash as suddenly something that is, according to our recent information, something that's very exciting again. So I think that's something that we've got to sort of put at the beginning of this conversation is we need to look at this in a much longer and bigger, broader picture, rather than putting too much weight on our recent experience the last two, three years.

Dr James, 3m 43s:

And let's let's frame this for people who are maybe a little in the dark about the situation to minute, john, what is the best cash? What is the best interest rate you've seen on a cash product? Maybe a cash iser?

Jon, 3m 56s:

Well, the best interest rates at the moment, you'd be looking somewhere near 6% or even just over 6% for tiny money up from one year.

Dr James, 4m 6s:

Right and cash isers.

Jon, 4m 11s:

Oh, you're asking me that, mate, because I don't ever look at cash ices, because it's not something that we ever, ever use.

Dr James, 4m 18s:

Can we pause on that for two seconds, right? Yeah, sure, for people listening, john is an IFA, right, and that gives you a big insight into the mindset of an IFA and their opinions on cash ices. But I find that a lot of people who are maybe not necessarily they haven't had the opportunity to learn as much about finance as we'd like, I suppose, or as would be beneficial to them. They often tend to favor cash ices more than anything else. But this is the thing, right? The reason I just wanted to highlight that for two seconds is because if you go to your FA, that's like one of the very last things that they look at, which also just gives you a little bit of an insight into how we could be thinking or how we should be thinking whenever it comes to money. Obviously, we don't want to make any investment decisions off the back of that. It's just a little bit of a hint.

Jon, 5m 8s:

Off the back of John, not knowing what cash ices are. But that is a very interesting point, because when we're putting money into ices, invariably we're thinking long term and we're thinking about using these ices to build tax-free cash flows or tax-free access to money in the distant future, rather than money that we're going to be dipping into because our lifestyle allowance is use it or lose it, and so it's very, very rare to even think about cash ices when we look at our financial plan.

Dr James, 5m 44s:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And with interest rates being where they were, not tabularly Like 0.25% were they at one point, point one.

Jon, 6m 9s:

Point one Gee Got down as low as 0.1. And so it wasn't unusual for your current account to pay your 0.01% interest. Yeah, no. And so if you're looking at the increase there is phenomenal. But we've got to ask ourselves is it worth long term investing in this?

Dr James, 6m 32s:

which comes back to what we were saying off camera on this very subject, John, which was the main factor that we should use to decide whenever we're making these decisions is I'll let you take the reins.

Jon, 6m 46s:

Yeah. What is the purpose of this money in our lives? Boom yeah, it's such a fundamental question to ask ourselves when making almost any financial decision is what is the purpose behind this? What is this for? Because when we think about money, we can think about the money that is our security blanket, our emergency fund. This is what we're going to go to when the car breaks down, the boiler is destroyed, one of the kids needs bailing out because they've got into a bit of financial difficulty. Whatever it is, this is our security money and we think about it very differently at different points of life as well. The accumulation versus those coming into land at retirement and in retirement will have different amounts that we'll have to put aside. But we've got this kind of we need this money, easy access. We need to be able to get hold of it. Breaking case of emergency money. Then we've got money that's for a fixed purpose school fees in 12 months time, two years time, or paying off a mortgage. That's a great one at the moment, where people have got a mortgage rate coming to an end but there's a penalty for paying the mortgage off now. But they might have. I was speaking to a client yesterday. They've still five years. They've got four years left on a mortgage deal but they've got cash to pay off. So we're using a fixed term bond to match the term of the money to pay off the mortgage and they can arbitrage their 2.2% mortgage rate versus the 6.5%. They can get on cash and make profit but then still pay it off at the end. There's a sort of fixed, there's an alignment there of purpose of the money with the time horizon, and then you've got your money that is going to be invested for the rest of your life, that you just need cash flow from at various points, whether that's pensions or that's ISIS or that's just general fund, and they're very different purposes of money when it comes to those, and you have to think about them almost in separate compartments in your brain.

Dr James, 8m 55s:

Cool, right, so beautiful what you just said then. So to say that in another way and maybe to distill that down a little bit, the majority of people I see who are making decisions to put their wealth, to store their wealth, in a cash based product when it is for their long term retirement pot is probably about maybe 80% of the people I see having those discussions Whereas in reality, if we're going to look at long term historical data, cash products are far outweighed by certain other assets which we can elaborate on on another day. Yeah, not going to elaborate too much on that for now, because I don't want people to make investment decisions off the back of this, and really to explain that fully takes a little bit more time. But suffice to say it's not cash products. So think about it. This is my brain works like this, like decision trees, right? So it's like we are here and you make a decision about what to do with the money. The very first thing to say is is this money long term investing, is this money from our retirement pot? And the answer is yes, which it is like 80% of the time, and from my experience, then already we're discounting cash products in my view. What do you think to that John?

Jon, 10m 9s:

I think that's in most circumstances. That's not far off where we would go. There's certain reasons why we might hold cash in a pension in certain environments, but if we are talking about this money that's invested for the rest of our lives, that we want to draw our cash flow from, then cash is going to get outperformed by inflation. And when we think about cash, what actually is cash? When we give money and put money in a bank with Santander or Barclays or HSB or whoever, what are they doing with that money? Why are they giving us this interest rate? Why they're giving it to us? Because they want to lend it to companies or to people and make more money than us. The only reason they're offering us 5% is because they can make 6% or 7%. The same with certain investment banks is they'll then take this money and they might put it into their startup fund, vehicles or other sort of environment. So cash is like this risk-free inverted commas asset that banks are taking off us to go and invest themselves, because they know they can get more money over time by giving us some instant access or some security, and they can go and make more money by paying us an interest rate, and we have to be willing to go. I'll accept that lower return on money over time because I want a bit of security that I can get the value of that cash on the day that I want it or need it For an emergency, for a specific purchase, something like this. But if I'm going 10, 15, 20, 30, I mean I'm approaching 40, I'm thinking I've got 60 years left to go in life. I'm planning on living to 100. I've got 60 years. This pension money is going to need to go for me. Why would I hold that in cash and give it to a bank to go and invest? With a 60 year time horizon I might as well own the companies great companies of the world and take the return that comes with that, because the purpose is to be there for me in 30, 40, 50, 60 years.

Dr James, 12m 47s:

That's a beautiful way of articulating that, and two things that I'm going to chuck in there. It's the concept of owners versus owners.

Jon, 12m 55s:

It's why bonds.

Dr James, 12m 56s:

It's why the total returns of bonds will always be less than companies, because the companies are borrowing the money to make a profit on it. If that was the other way around, capitalism wouldn't work, if you think about that for two seconds, because all the companies would be losing money. Yeah, I get there's these fluctuations right, but we're talking like great long-term trends here. Are you with me?

Jon, 13m 17s:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also, when you're talking broad market investments, rather than going, some hedge funds will buy bonds to purposefully run a company out of into problems so they can kick out the equity owners and convert those bonds into equity. That's aggressive capitalism through hedge funds. But if you're talking buying the general wide market, then equities will outperform bonds over most investment time horizons.

Dr James, 13m 49s:

Yes, important thing to clarify there 100% we're talking whole market rather than individual companies. Also, another thing about banks that people may or may not know you know, when you put your money in the bank as a new deposit to them, technically at that point it's not your money. You actually lent your money to the bank. The reason that they give you interest is because they're giving you an incentive to loan your money to them. Then what they do is they take some of that capital and lend it to other people, but they also just print a load of damn money as well, which is why fractional reserve banking is the thing which is really interesting. Yeah, because they only need to say they lend 100,000, they maybe only need like and these aren't exact figures. There's a fractional reserve, there's a reserve rate but say, they lend 100,000, they only really need to have like 5,000 in deposits. So it's wildly profitable for them. But they don't want to do it too much, because if you just lend to anybody, then there's a chance that that might become a liability in the lose wealth. But this is how the Bank of England manages the inflation rate of the company. Most capital it's generated is from commercial banks. It's not actually from the central bank Because of fractional reserve banking, which is a factoid that I really loved. I Love that that bring my mind. I was like whoa, that's insane. Most of it comes from commercial banks. Most of us just made the hell up at the second the point that somebody borrows it.

Jon, 15m 12s:

Mm-hmm.

Dr James, 15m 12s:

There's only good there's. You know everything and you probably noticed off already. Every single pound in existence is lent into existence. It's hot, it's dead. Yeah, it either comes from a central bank or a commercial bank. Anyway, we're gonna go.

Jon, 15m 24s:

Going down a rabbit hole there.

Dr James, 15m 28s:

Just going off and one of his rounds again. Yeah, I was gonna start there politely nodding yeah. Video being very polite. It's gonna be in very polite. Anyway, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hold it right there.

Jon, 15m 40s:

It's a whole deep conversation for another time, but it is the nature of our fear currency system. It is fractional. It works for a reason and and yeah it's. But it means that when we're, you know, when we see like a one-year bond On offer is because the the bank has a load of mortgages that they want to offer out and They'll have this collection of bonds that they're offering, they might have a certain budget. We'll take in 50 million on this one-year bonds and then we've got a mortgage pool of will lend 200 million based on this one-year bond. You know we'll match them up like that. Yeah, it's you more nuanced than that, but that's kind of a nice simple way of looking at it.

Dr James, 16m 28s:

I went to get a book while you were talking there, john, the creature from Jack-O-Land. Right, okay you've read this bad boy.

Jon, 16m 35s:

No, I've not it's a.

Dr James, 16m 37s:

It's a wacky book. It's like 600 pages. It's on the history of banks and money and how it works and that's where some of that stuff came from. Just there's really eye-opening. It's definitely Tough reading. In a few parts it's pretty dense. Not very many pictures in this book, john, and the writing is pretty small, so it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I managed to get through it and I learned a lot. So just wanted to share that with everybody. It does get a little conspiracy theorists and wacky in some parts. So you just you just have to take every, every resource you have to take with the pinch of salt you have to do I or, of course, but it definitely opened my eyes a lot of things. Just wanted to share that. Okay okay, cool, go, go, go, go go. I have another interesting abstract cash concept or another interesting way of looking at it, which I'm not sure if you've heard. I'll share it and then we'll find out. You think about money. Money is. Is it condensed, is condensed time, that's all it is. Money is condensed time. You think about it like this if you go to work for an hour and your hourly rates a hundred pounds, you get the hundred pounds. That's a record that you work for the hour. So instead of you going to have to work for an hour for someone else, you can just give them 50 pounds or you can just give them a hundred pounds, and that's a record of one of your hours. The more skilled you are, the more value that you create. The more you get per hour, the more you're able to exchange your time, for that is a record off your work. It's a condensed version of time. That's all it is. Now, if your hourly rate is more than other people's, it's all relative. That's all it is. Money is abstract. It's actually more the relativity of it, as in how much yours is worth versus other people's, according to your skills and your abilities, which pertains to how much you can obtain for an hour of your time, and what you will find is, if you're able to earn X amount for a certain amount of time and it's not as much for someone else necessarily, then what it means is that you can leverage that to obtain more in return Then what you exchanged for it effectively. So think about money like that. Money is a condensed version of time. That's all. It is Okay, cool.

Jon, 18m 36s:

I'm not enough coffee for that kind of oh man, I've had like two this morning.

Dr James, 18m 40s:

Anyway, I'm like I'm hugging the limelight. Anyway, john, back to what we're supposed to be talking about. Let's, let's, let's go back to. Cash is an investment. So we talked about the people who are looking at it from a long-term perspective. Yeah as in they're thinking themselves Okay, I have some money, I don't need it. And maybe until retirement or so, let's say plus 10 years, her time horizon let's say that just to really crystallize it right. So that's gonna be miles off in the future. So really, for the reasons that we've highlighted already, maybe cash, maybe a cash product, is not their first choice, or certainly it's not as lucrative as it seems anyway. Yeah so yeah so let's, let's pull it forward to more shorter time frames. What would you, what would you say? Your wisdom is on that subject? Of course, obviously, what we want to do is make it really clear that it's not financial advice, but maybe just some high-level pointers In in.

Jon, 19m 33s:

In short, to time horizons.

Dr James, 19m 35s:

Yeah, so under 10 years, as in, would there be instance where it's Clever to consider using a cash product?

Jon, 19m 42s:

So I think the first one's a really poignant one at the moment, where you, you know You've bought a mortgage or a liability that's fixed in for a certain period of time, whether it's a, you know, generally speaking it's going to be a mortgage that's on a fixed rate. And Do you know that? You know this example? Literally yesterday had this conversation 700,000 pound mortgage on a 2.2 percent interest rate. It's got four years left. Fantastic, right. Why would we pay that off? That these clients have got money that they want to use to pay this mortgage on, you know, ready to go, and they're also adding to that pot on a monthly basis because what they don't want is to get to four years time. And that 700,000 pounds go from 2.25 to 6% on an interest rate because that's going to hurt. That's going to hurt a lot. So what we can look at doing is taking out fixed term deposits with the cash that they've got and go and get 6% return whilst paying 2.25. And the important math to do there is to go. I'm getting 6%. What's that going to be net of my tax position? Absolutely, this is where I'm going to end up. So 40% tax payer on a 6% return is going to be netting around about 3.5% or something like that. So you're making a profit after tax on that cash in excess of what you're paying on the mortgage and you can match your rates whilst you're waiting for that time to come, and then you can pay it off on day one. You're going to make quite a few thousand pounds profit doing that, and we wouldn't go to look at an investment solution for that into the market because of volatility. Yes, there is a chance that it could be worth a lot more than if we use cash, but we could have a moment in markets right at the wrong time, so you would match that. Other classic examples would be people who've maybe been gifted some money by grandparents' parents for school fees, and so you might look at a one year, two year, three year, four year, five year deposit to match with when those school fees become due. Alternatively, you might talk to the school and see if they're willing to do a discount on payment upfront, which some private schools are willing to do. So there's a few different ways to look at it. A balloon payments on cars if you're on PCP and you love the car, you could look at putting cash on deposit for that balloon payment, depending on the interest rates. So that's a really classic example, I think. The other sorts of ones that we come across are companies where you've got someone with a company who might be looking at purchasing a practice or another practice or a freehold in a few years time, and so again we've got an under five year time horizon and you could then look at managing liquidity through to when you're wanting to do things. And, of course, the big one for most dentists tax bills.

Dr James, 23m 11s:

Yeah, see this question a lot.

Jon, 23m 13s:

Yeah. So, juniper, we've partnered with a cash management service that can help us manage liquidity for clients. So we can put X amount into easy access, x amount into 90 day notice accounts, one year, two year, three year, and manage it all with our clients. So you don't have that pain of opening up bank accounts and doing all the paperwork. We can just put it into the service and open up accounts from there. Similar to there's flags don't do it direct for consumer, but for a fixed fee, and it's a small number of banks. This is similar but for advisors like myself to use and, yeah, it's really effective in that way.

Dr James, 23m 59s:

Good to know, because I see that question coming up all the time, like, hey, I've got all this tax money. Is there a way that I can make some profit from it without exposing myself to risk risk insofar capital loss and risk insofar as volatility as well? That's the biggie.

Jon, 24m 16s:

Yeah, and of course, if we think about risk in these financial decisions, the three kind of risks that most people are concerned about are inflation, volatility and capital loss. They are so. There are other risks that we go into with people, but volatility is what we accept as a price of participation. It's a feature, not a flaw, of the market. For long-term accept volatility. Short-term we accept inflation. Cash is still underperforming inflation, but that sort of security of knowing we can access it is there. Permanent, irrevocable loss of capital is something that as an advisor, I won't consider in my clients. So there's potential for that. We won't touch it. But we don't see that in the kind of market portfolios that we invest in, because even if Apple went and imploded, our clients would only lose the 5% of their investment something like that if they're in 100% equity.

Dr James, 25m 23s:

And that's an important thing to know is that because everybody equates investing with that risk. They think it's an inherent feature of investing that there is a chance that your capital can totally disappear off the face of the earth, and that's because we're all raised on NFTs and crypto.

Jon, 25m 42s:

I think you say oh, I was raised on the dotcom problem, mate.

Dr James, 25m 50s:

Actually yeah, I might be subtly betraying my mindset as a millennial there what I just said. But yeah, anyway, I was going to say but really, that risk can be mitigated to virtually zero when you invest in certain assets which have long term data and are also intrinsically entwined with the fortunes of global capitalism. You can basically say you can invest in such a way that the only real way it can fail is if capitalism fails, and there's a lot of people with huge amounts of vested interest in that it will give all their energy and all their time and all their effort and all their power to ensure that that doesn't happen. So you're backed by that.

Jon, 26m 30s:

Yeah, and I think it's from my experience as an advisor. It's been a really. I started as an advisor 15 years ago, so before interest rates went down, I was advising clients and so those early years of people having that recency bias about cash were my early years as an advisor. People remembered interest rates being 5%, 6%, or the Icelandic banks that are offering 9% on cash. Yeah, I mean that was a whole disaster when the Icelandic banks stuff. If you're interested in financial history, there's a really great podcast called Library of Mistakes and it's a library in Scotland where they just collect stories of bad financial decisions and they've got a really good one on the Icelandic banking problem and the collapse of the Icelandic stock market and the Icelandic banks. But anyway, so I remember those conversations with people who were used to getting 5% in cash and having to educate around the stock market and what investing is, and you can totally empathize with this sort of fear, response or nervousness that. I understand cash. I understand my bank account. I've always had one. I know what's going on there when I'm getting an amount that feels like an appropriate thing. It's a completely normal in human response to uncertainties to go and retreat to what we know, and the only route to overcoming that is education and trust. You know there are only two things that are going to overcome this. Either we have to educate ourselves on what investing is, understanding that the stock market will outperform cash. That'll only come through education, or it can come through trust in a trusted advisor or a trusted source of information, and it's those two things in combination that, as financial planners, we use it to help our clients overcome some of this nervousness. You know, and sometimes you just got to go. I'm going to do what I can. So I had a recent one with the client where they sold a bi-to-let because who wants to be in bi-to-let right now? And you know they have this lump of money. And this question came up if I can get 5% in my bank account, why would I go back into some investments? You know they've got significant money invested already. They previously had some stock shares. I actually sold it to buy house in Barbados. How cool is that? Right, and that was a great joy for me. Cash and a load of investments buying a house in Barbados for these clients. But they got some more money to put in. And you know what. It's a situation where you go but the numbers, the spreadsheets, the kind of data points as to saying this money needs to all go into the stock market today. But for that client of mine in that moment that would have been too much and they would have been up at night every night worrying about this decision they've made. So we came to an agreement and we said look, let's put half of this into a 12-month bond we can definitely get 6% and let's put half of this into markets and that way, one when 12 months time, markets have continued to go sideways for a bit, you know you've had some return. But the thing with markets and you'll know this, james is you can never predict when it's gonna kick off and start going, and you've gotta be in the game, you've gotta have skin in the game when that happens. And this way for this client, if that happens in the next 12 months, they've had skin in the game and, yes, they've got 6% on cash and they'll buy back in at a slightly higher rate if markets are gone on. But they've also made a load of money on the part that we've put into investments. So sometimes it's not an all or nothing decision, it's a how can I do this in a way that helps me do what I know I should do, whilst feeling safe to do it, at the same time knowing that I can then stick to the plan? You know I can stick to. The worst thing you can do right now is take all your cash, put it in the stock market and then panic when there's a little wobble, because then you've absolutely shot yourself in the foot. So it's about making sure one the purpose of this money, and then how do we go about making the right decisions and sticking to a plan, and sometimes that could be doing a bit of both drip it in. You know, all the stuff that the data says isn't the perfect way, but it's kind of like good, better, best. You know, I don't think you probably don't watch Antique Roadshow. My yeah, my 15 year old daughter is a history nerd and loves the Antique Roadshow, which my wife and I find really hilarious because we were forced to watch it as kids and really hated it. But they do this thing on the Antique Roadshow, where they do good, better, best when they get three Antiques and everyone has to guess which one's good, better, best. And I think it's the same often with investments right, we've got good, we've got better and we've got best. And most of the time people are not doing good. So let's at least do good. You know, it's like why some of the advice around just buying index funds? It's good, it may not be better, it may not be best, but it's good, it's not bad. And that can be the same with some of these decisions around cash. You know, let's at least be doing good with this money.

Dr James, 32m 34s:

Yeah, man, it all starts with knowledge, in my opinion, because at least that way you can make a conscious choice, rather than just going with the flow and maybe hearing something and implementing it when it doesn't actually really fit what your goals and objectives are. But that is, of course, the mission of Dennis and Vest. That's literally why I made it in that submission of this podcast. So, yeah, thank you for sharing all of that today, john. It's been a pleasure, as usual. John, if you were to summarize everything that we just said, and maybe some like hot ticks, what would it be? I'm putting you on the spot a little bit.

Jon, 33m 13s:

Oh, summarize hot takes, hot takes. Let's go Make an investment decisions. Always think about what is the purpose of this money. In my life, priority number one every single decision. Number two is if it's short-term, cash can be great. It's security and it gives us a return on our investment at the moment. Number three if it's long-term, then you need to think about going beyond cash. Either educate yourself or find someone you trust, a trusted advisor, and ideally, someone who's gonna do all of that. Get yourselves out there and educated and find that trusted advisor. Bit rambley at the end there, mate, but one, two and three were great.

Dr James, 34m 1s:

Those are tight.

Jon, 34m 1s:

Those are tight man.

Dr James, 34m 3s:

I was just to find I'm gonna applaud those and just for anybody who's listening, that was no rehearsal. I kind of sprung that on John and those are all off the cuff and I thought those were amazing mate. Thank you so much, john. For anybody who's listening, who wants to know more about yourself and what you do, where are they best finding you?

Jon, 34m 19s:

Yeah, sure, so I run a firm called Juniper Wealth Management. You can find me on LinkedIn, on Twitter, on Instagram, at Juniper underscore John, and we are at Juniper Wealth UK, I think, on most socials. We're also on Facebook. You'll find me on the dentist to invest group and yeah, just happy to be working and helping with dentists.

Dr James, 34m 43s:

Love it. Oh, mate, listen, my pleasure to have you along today, as always, and I'm looking forward to our next episode already. I'll see you very soon. Go see soon, mate.