Dr James, 0s:

What's up everyone? Another episode of Dentists Who Invest podcast. Today I'm joined by Mr Zain Remy, a relatively recent practice owner, and we've got some wisdom to share for people who are voyaging down that path, and maybe some words of wisdom for people who are considering it or imminently about to embark on it as well. Zain, how are you?

Dr Zain, 18s:

I'm great James. Thank you for taking the call, big fan. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to sharing um my journey with yourself and everyone listening and hopefully, um, it'd be great to kind of connect with, with those embarking on that similar journey, thinking about embarking that similar journey, and those that are already on that journey themselves. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to kind of like hashing through a few things with you and helping out let's do that.

Dr James, 48s:

And you know what the reason I invited Zain on? One of the reasons I invited Zain on was because he's created a facebook community for this as well. Zain, can we shout that out right at the start and then we'll shout it out right again? Because I'm keen to support, because dental practice owners they need help, right, they need, they need friends. Yeah, they need love yeah, of course, um.

Dr Zain, 1m 9s:

So just recently, um, initially I wanted to kind of share um this, uh, this facebook group for um, specifically for practice owners, but it's kind of developed into a group where I'm reaching out to associates that also want to kind of follow that same journey. So the Facebook community group that I've set up is the diary of dental practice owners love it, yeah, love it.

Dr James, 1m 36s:

Amazing, okay, cool. Uh, I really like these podcasts because these are very much we're speaking from the head, but we're also speaking from the heart about a lot of this stuff, because it's what works to be a dental practice owner, but it's also what worked for Zain as well, because there's so much variation out there. Right like two practice owners can go about it in a completely different way and both succeed. That's like the cool thing about business, if you ask me, because it's what works, but it's also what works for you or me or for anybody, and that's why I really enjoy these particular podcasts, because it's as much about that as it is about your story. So proceeding on that foot is in. If we could talk a little bit about yourself, just to get a little bit of background, you were telling me you qualified in 2016 from dentistry, right?

Dr Zain, 2m 24s:

yes, I qualified, uh in 2016 from kings uh in guys, london, um, and I am an avid traveler and I like working out of my comfort zone. So I thought, you know what, let me take myself as far up the northeast as I can, um, to newcastle, um, and see what it's about. If I didn't like it, I would have always sort of moved back down, you know, and that's where my journey started as an FD in 2016. But I never went with a mindset that I wanted to own a practice or anything like that. I just wanted to like kind of be humble. I wanted to kind of develop myself, my own credentials as well, and see, see where, where the journey takes me. And so I mean, should I continue going on to the going through the journey process?

Dr James, 3m 14s:

yeah, you know it's interesting. I just wanted to jump in and say one thing that that kind of piqued my interest there, that you were talking you didn't actually want to own a practice, but no, you do, and there's lots of people who feel that way, right, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm interested, I'm intrigued.

Dr Zain, 3m 29s:

So, yeah, I did my FD in Morpeth, which is a small town in the northeast, and I luckily stayed on there because I kind of liked the family type of independent sort of feel and I felt quite at home and my ES was really cool, really supportive. I learned a hell of a lot from him and the scheme itself was bloody awesome as well, and so shout out to the north scheme. Um, anyway, um, I stayed on for another year for maternity uh, covering someone's maternity and then I embarked on a journey, um, in a corporate, because I looked on, indeed, and there was literally nothing going. It was my first opportunity to try and find or sort of delve into the realms of looking for a job. So I was really super scared, um, and you can ask anyone, you can get all of the advice that you wanted, um. But I kind of took that leap and jumped, and it was because, at the time, I got sucked into signing for corporate, which I won't mention any names, um, but I had a golden handshake, so I was like, great, I'm gonna get a pot of cash. That's because I was actually gonna learn. I was gonna kind of, um, put some money down on a flat as well, which again was my first experience of buying something. It didn't work out. However, I can take positives from it as well. So I actually worked in a really like non-affluent area where it was very much like NHS drill fill extraction and I was looking around at all the associates around me and I was thinking, hmm, why is it that these guys have sold their practices but they still love doing the same sort of stuff? And, again, there's nothing bad about doing the nitty gritty NHS things. But I just for myself, my own personal thing, I just thought to myself that this cannot be it for dentistry. There has to be more than this, um, and I was actually like losing my passion a little bit and drive and I started not enjoying it and I was even contemplating like not dentistry was not for me, you know, and this was only like a couple of years in, two, three, three years in. So this is when I thought you know what, screw this, I'm going to like enroll in a course with Smile Academy. So I don't know if you know those guys, kish and Jin Kish and Jin. Yeah, I've seen them around Great characters, great set of guys, and so I actually embarked on that journey. I left my corporate practice and moved into a mixed practice, and it was at this point where I was trying to get the cases for my restorative diploma, that I nearly got fired. Oh, wow. Yeah, because basically I was scanning every case because I really eagerly wanted to develop myself, but then I realized that these guys had a business to run as well. Oh, yeah, that thing, yeah, yeah, develop myself, um, but then I realized that these guys had a business to run as well. So, um, I I remember, like I still remember it today and I've still got that box of materials that I carried around in this art box of all the private materials, and it never sat right in my head where I was bringing it out for a private case and then putting it out putting it away for an NHS case and this for me, um, I was starting to develop my own values and thinking that, do you know what? I think I want to do things properly, by the standards, um, and take my time over treatments. And that is why, essentially, I got pulled in by the principals and they said look, Zain, you're gonna have to do your crown preps in like 40 minutes. And that's where there was a little bit of a risk and I was like it ain't happening. So I kind of then kind of moved on. So I then sort of applied for jobs in various private practices, you know, because I built my portfolio, my clinical portfolio up, my portfolio, my clinical portfolio up, and so I had a few cases and and I built sort of my, a little bit of a brand, which was my social media brand dr zayn remy and and I I realized there was a niche in this, by the way, and so I actually had locked and connected with a few companies, in particular I don't know if you've heard of zima, who won the dental industry awards last year, and so it's really cool. They've got a device and that they use that. Basically, please retainers, I'm not going to go into that anyway um, I found, as a dentist, I was able to build a brand and the reason why this is relevant is this this kind of helped with kind of building those connections, as I then embarked in sort of dental practice ownership later on down the line. So I thought do you know what All of these dentists are putting their portfolio online? When you look at some of the titles that are presented by dentists, I don't know if you've seen and they're great, the quality of work is amazing, some of the stuff that these guys do. But you've got to understand why you're doing it, why you're using and capitalizing on marketing, such as social media. So for me, I wanted the engagement to attract more patients and it then kind of. I then ended up going into different sort of interviews with different private practices. Like I said before, I had barriers in a mixed practice where I was trying to kind of do things with the time that I needed with the materials that obviously was embedded into the prices, and I've actually then worked at another private practice again I'm not going to mention many names, of course, but I was sort of over promised but undersold when I got there and things like materials. So this is where I came to a split decision Do I either go and travel away from the Northeast, go back down South, as I originally planned on doing, working at somewhere like Wimple Street or something like that, and find the practice that I want to work for that shares the same values and ethos I want to work for that shares the same values and ethos, or do I buy what I want to kind of develop into a place where I'm happy and working in the way that I want to work, and at this time I'd my wife was pregnant, okay, so I was taking a lot of risks. Let's do all the research first and try and get this practice and develop it in the way that I want to develop it and that kind of puts me nicely into that step of purchasing the practice I like that, so it came from here.

Dr James, 9m 54s:

It came from the heart right 100. You know two, two things I just like to point out there, recurring themes. Whenever I speak to principals and practice owners, the first one I would say is, yeah, it comes from the head. It's a business decision. But to make you actually follow through, to give you that energy, to give you that passion, it really helps when there's a reason behind it, like your why, almost, and it usually comes from personal experience, because there's almost part of you that just feels like there's a wrong that has to be righted in the world and your business is your vehicle to do that, which I really love and it is so true and that's actually there's a total parallel there with denison invest. I think there's so many things that could be improved about people's perception of money and also how they go about whenever it comes to the investment side of things like that was something that I learned through my own voyage, but we'll save that for another day. That I'm sure I spoke about that another podcast before which and it's not the point of today, so we'll just swerve right by that, but it is true for business owners. And then the other thing was social media. It just really helps, doesn't it? Having a brand and a personal brand. I think it really helps to clarify what a brand basically is and that's just basically how many people have a positive perception of you is there one definition of a brand.

Dr Zain, 11m 6s:

Well, I can say this soon. So if you move aside from that and think as a dentist um, am I able to like swear a little bit on this? I don't know, no we can speak there.

Dr James, 11m 19s:

There have been expletives, uh, at, you know, on the dentist podcast, before we haven't got cancelled.

Dr Zain, 11m 25s:

Yeah, we haven't all right okay, I'll, I'll hold back it we can have, we can have, some we can yeah okay. So look, at the end of the day, right as a dentist and I found this out now, and I've come to realize this as a business owner, as a principal that as you go through the journey from fd all the way up to wherever you are in your career now, and the amount of nurses and people that you've interacted with, dentistry is a small world okay. And it just so happens that the nurses that I went on the journey with, um in different practices that I embarked on, those nurses ended up working for me because of the positive ethos and the relationship I built up and how I was able to do things. So it's just very mindful to to to. It's not just the patient base, but who you cheese off, you know, I mean along the way it can actually come to bite you later on down the line. And so I just thought I'd mention that because I literally literally have felt that along the way and I'm so glad that I have more positive, I've been more positive and have those positive interactions with my team and people that I've worked with the negatives because of this situation that I'm in now.

Dr James, 12m 42s:

Hell, yeah, man, yeah, do everything, everything you possibly can to maintain relationships with people, and you know, sometimes it is necessary to. Well, here's how I heard somebody explain you have to preserve, you know there has to be some level of you surrounding yourself with the right people. And I heard someone say once they were like love everybody, but some people you've got to love from a distance, right, and I thought that was a really nice way of thinking about that, about it subconsciously, you know, because, yeah, you should, you should try to keep everybody on board is what I'm saying where possible, yeah, I agree.

Dr Zain, 13m 19s:

Going back to the social media side of things, so this is again where the positivity helps a little bit as well, because, obviously, building up the affiliations with certain companies. So, on the social media, I touched on the fact that I built up relationships with the likes of zima, um and um and boutique and things like that, you know, and this has all helped with um, um, with with where now I'm able to kind of like lock horns with certain companies and who who share the same values, the positive values and things and environmental values, and that's who. When we do sort of sell products or kind of um or kind of work with brands, we kind of look very closely at what their, what their, their message is as well. Um, and this came all from my personal brand in terms of what I was trying to achieve. So, going back to the original question, in terms of free marketing, because that's what I value as what I, what I put it down as I put myself on, because I couldn't capitalize on every single um, um on every single platform. I just didn't have enough time whilst doing dentistry. So, um, what I did was I focused on TikTok, I focused on Facebook and I focused on Instagram. Um, and TikTok grew and that's where I got a few of the affiliations and I wanted to kind of do a lot more. Um, I wanted to reach out to the general public and give sort of like really cool, engaging, silly, stupid content. You know things like for me, like tom cruise smile, you know how, like it's not symmetrical, he's got that tooth in the middle of his head, right, exactly.

Dr James, 14m 56s:

Yeah, can I look? Can I look you up just while we're talking?

Dr Zain, 15m 0s:

yeah, yeah, what is it? Zain, Zain remy on tiktok yeah, dr Zain remy on tiktok yeah cool, I'll have a little look. But yes, you were saying tom cruise, yeah, and then like even stuff like, for example, callum wilson, newcastle football player, and it got re-implanted back in. It was just like crazy stuff like that from a dental perspective, just to get as much engagement from various different groups onto my social media. And I just want to like add something here and say that I'm no guru on social media. I'm still learning, okay, but it's just trying to kind of do things that are a little bit different. But for me, I wanted to create content that allowed me to engage with the general public and was able to then turn into capitalizing patients that would then come in, because ultimately that is the brand. And when you go and then sit down with a principal and you're like negotiating your split.

Dr James, 15m 54s:

and you know something that blew my mind about social media and I know on the part on the podcast we do often talk about social media and how it can help and we, we reflect and we, I suppose, kind of shoot the breeze on it fairly often. But there's a reason for that. It's because it really can help people so much in their career. And one big thing that shifted for me whenever I started my social media journey, I didn't post on Facebook for five years and then one day I went to Facebook true story. One day I went to Facebook and I typed in Dennis who, invest, create group, right, literally right. It was just overnight, and then I started posting every day, and that was five years ago, right. So I had five years off, five years like intense social media. And I guess one thing that held me back from doing that which I now know not to be true, only because I actually made that group and I saw it from the other side was that I thought that you would only actually really be able to make impact and create something that's beneficial whenever you have 50,000 followers or 100,000. But no, the good stuff starts happening when you literally have 10 or 100.

Dr Zain, 16m 58s:

Yeah, 100%. And you know, like things are always shifting on social media and I really like kind of pay attention to these different small mini podcasts and things like that, and it's all about the engaging content and being the first person to as a dentist I specifically wanted to target dentists here is that a lot of? A lot of not posting and this is me speaking to other dentists as well is the confidence of what other people will think. Oh yeah, okay, the issue that you have is that these dentists because I was one of those dentists think that hold on, what if I get judged by other dentists and I'm gonna look like an absolute idiot and my confidence is going to get? My confidence is up here, but now my confidence is going to be completely sort of crushed and I'm not going to post anything else and that's the fear. But ultimately you've got to kind of. You've got to kind of set a goal of why you're doing it, and for me, the goal was I wanted to get patients and what patients want are, um, are white, and if you've got basic white teeth, metal to white teeth. So for me it was like right, my goal is to engage with as many of the general public as possible, and if I get slated by other dentists I probably would. I don't care, because that particular post has got me three patients that are actually coming into me, coming into the practice and booking in with myself and booking in with myself. So really what I'm trying to say is it's just trying to kind of be to break away from that and be the first and be the first and to sort of boost that confidence and try and take the first step. That's what I'm trying to do I think it's important.

Dr James, 18m 48s:

A really good mental frame is that everything has a price right. So posting and having massive impact has a price right. So posting and having massive impact has a price. You might get the odd negative comment, although I have to say I'm stunned by how rarely it actually happens in reality. If ever, yeah, that happens, but the price of you not doing that is potentially the price of you never fulfilling your dreams as well. And to me, when you frame it that way around, I'm like, wow, shit, all of a sudden it looks easy to me to just go ahead and I'll take a few negative comments versus feeling unfulfilled all day long. Depends on someone's goals. I'm assuming that everyone has the same goals as me. Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't, I don't know. I'm speaking from my perspective. Anyway, anywho, anywho, anywho practice. So you opened a practice and yes social media helped you. Will you leverage social media to help you set up the practice right?

Dr Zain, 19m 37s:

yeah, it did, but, um, so that was one like sort of like aspect, but, um, the the majority of the aspect really was a lot of pre-planning um and um. You know, like for me, if I was to ask one of the dentists again, I was one of those dentists where do you start with all the research? Um, I really wanted to. I, I sat down and on a piece of paper I literally wrote down what I wanted to achieve. Okay, so, number one I wanted to be able to practice and do the dentistry that I wanted to do, so spend the time that I wanted to spend and be able to do things like full math rehabs in a place where, okay, I might make a loss, but that's because I own the practice, I have my materials, so have full clinical freedom. That was number one. Number two I didn't like this is not. This is I don't want people thinking that I'm slaying the NHS or anything like that. Okay, but I didn't want to work seeing 50 patients a day or 40 patients a day squeezed in. I was literally stressed as hell doing that and I just couldn't give the same care and quality Me personally, not speaking for anyone else. I just couldn't do that. I couldn't work that way. So that was number two. And, of course, with anything, I wanted to have my own vision and strategy, which is again something that I actually prepared because I needed that to be able to provide that to the banks to get, even if it was like a five year plan of what I wanted to achieve for my vision. Ok, so they were the three things, and then I started off by um, I don't know if I can name drop companies here, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to do that, but yeah, yeah, so I started off with um. Like I really um got on really well with this guy called christian at lily heads. It was a broker, um, and I remember at this point, um, I'd actually presented a few sort of practice stuff to him and said, look, can you? I don't know where to start. I don't even know what. I do not even know what an EBITDA is. So I literally said, just here it is, show me what I need. What am I looking for? Like that's profitability, this is what I want. I don't want an NHS practice with a small list, I want a private practice and I want to be able to try and kind of um grow it. So we hash. There was like literally two, three. It took me a year, right, to kind of get the right practice. Um, looking at the figures and I even like I I was thinking of, do I go in partnership with someone else and do I go into a three-way partnership with someone else on the business? Yeah, so definitely don't do that, because to come out of that you have to also look at a contingency if something does happen or you don't get on, and it's much harder selling off your third share. So anyway, so yeah, so we hashed out and I found a practice where it had. It was a Demplan Care. I don't know if you know what Demplan Care is.

Dr James, 22m 39s:

Yeah, demplan Care is the one where they pay a subscription and then they get is their exams covered and a discount from the treatment, or is it they get everything? They get everything, don't they everything?

Dr Zain, 22m 50s:

everything, it's that so, um, I remember, um, speaking to, I paid barry alton a little bit of a consult because I want, I really liked what he's doing as well and I really wanted to kind of get a bit of knowledge from him, and he basically said, Zain, take this practice as a red flag, do not do it. Because basically, um, this practice on den plan care, um, you don't have any appreciation for your chair time or remakes because, as you just said, there they have different bandings based on how many fillings they've had set by Demplan. So it's just set by little tick box exercises. So you don't know, there could be loads of unsupervised neglect because there was no hygienist in this place as well. Neglect because there was no hygienist in this place as well. And however, um, I I wanted to take the risk, um, because I knew what I was prepared and what I could actually do. And, trust me, if I knew how bad it was when I got there, maybe I would have not done it. And I'm glad I actually did launch myself in there because I changed it to exactly what you just said a maintenance plan, which was, which was and I lost a hell of a lot of patients doing it as well and so I took the risk and the plunge and I took calculated risks and but I purchased a dem plan care practice and turned it into a practice plan practice because I wanted to create plans that was evidence-based and also appreciated the chair time, the hourly rate um that we wanted for, let's say, dentist, hygienic, therapist, whatever um, and that sort of that sort of was my inroads um into getting into into dental practice ownership. I then basically christian then helped me sort of secure um funds um and it was quite easy to be honest with you um actually securing it for through lloyd um because they apparently are one of the main sort of banks that actually invest in dental practices or loan out and it's quite a safe bet in their eyes. So it's not as hard as you think. You just need someone that will run the figures and work for you. But definitely come up with a strategy as well, like I know that sometimes you might stray away from the strategy, but I had like a five-year little mini strategy of what I want to achieve. You know what my business core values are, which we have, you know, sustainability, et cetera, because it kind of keeps you grounded as well when you're navigating through all of the changes.

Dr James, 25m 35s:

And that helped as well a little bit to give a bit of context to the banks you know what, on the whole vision for your business side of things, I never did that at the very start and a part of me, part of me, thought to myself what is this fluff? I don't need this, let's just get it done right. But it actually really helps calibrate you and I've. I've come full. I've done a 180 now about three years and I did that exercise. I read a really great book. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's called traction by gino wickman. I heard of it.

Dr Zain, 26m 8s:

I'm gonna take a note of that bloody brilliant book is so great.

Dr James, 26m 12s:

it really complements uh, you heard of the e-myth, michael gerber, all about all about making processes in your business. Anyway, they I really like the e-myth is, you know it's more spoken off. Uh, the reason I brought the e-myth up was because it actually some people may be able to relate to that in the audience. And this book, traction, complements the e-myth perfectly, like they should be the same book, like volume one, volume one and volume two, if you ask me. But yeah, anyway, traction, gino Wickman, all about it talks about this thing called the entrepreneurial operating system and it's all about, yeah, but how do you make decisions unless you actually have a vision for your business? Like you know, something only makes sense relative to whether or not it takes you further away from your or away from your objective. But if you haven't actually defined the goal or the objective, then nothing actually really makes any sense because it's all relative. And I see, I completely see that now and I probably did a lot of spinning my wheels when I could have been more concise and purposeful, and it sounds that you relate to that from what you're saying more concise and purposeful, and it sounds that you relate to that from what you're saying.

Dr Zain, 27m 17s:

Yeah, a hundred percent, and you know you can pre-plan everything. But trust me, if you don't do any pre-planning, then you've got nothing to kind of to fall back on, because whatever pre-planning you've done is completely different, and you'll hear about that as soon as I've embarked on the challenges that I faced when I went into dental practice ownership. It's not what you think.

Dr James, 27m 39s:

um, there's a lot more you know what, maybe a brilliant opportunity right now to segue into that, because this is the stuff that's going to really extra super help people right.

Dr Zain, 27m 47s:

So this is my personal experience when I actually so okay, um, I was locuming at the time to get a little bit of funds together you know day rates and whatnot um, because, um, it took a little bit longer to actually purchase this practice. So I did something that was a little bit different to the norm. I put warranty claims in because, remember what I said about the den plan care practice I already knew, based on locking horns with the likes of you know people that I've mentioned that um, what I was expecting, even clinically, where treatments were done very quickly, etc. Right, so I put warranty claims in and I actually used this uh, this is woodlands, they're really good um, um, and it took me ages to negotiate and sit down and negotiate with the owners and say, look, this is what I'm prepared to do, but I want a 12 year warranty on any failed treatments or failed issues with the building and things like that. Ok, which actually has saved my ass because I'm actually going through that process now. My ass because I'm actually going through that process now. Okay, but I'll come to that anyway. When I, when I took over the practice, my goal was, I really, really wanted to be this principal that kept all my staff on and and had amazing patients that were singing my praise, you know, and all the the owners that were like saying great Zain coming in, he brings this to the table, we're going to be a happy family. But it didn't happen like that, um, and because I came with a very different angle and approach where um, even my dentistry, um again, was very much like I wanted to do things by the book, um, I wanted my nurses to follow the same um, same things, things by the book. I wanted my nurses to follow the same thing, things on the rubber dam, etc. And I was prepared to sit down and, you know, with these principles to say, look, this is how things are. I'm happy to sit down with you guys and kind of like adapt a little bit of your dentistry and help you and guide you through this. But all I want from you guys is just to kind of like, not bad mouth me and make you know, make me make me look decent, because obviously you guys are retiring soon, um, so it'd be nice for you to kind of me, to kind of take that reins and keep my patients intact, because that's what I paid for the goodwill. Okay, um, ultimately, um, cut the long story short because it's gone for ages. Um, in the end, um, I never, I never got rid of any of the nurses and I never got rid of any of the owners. So yeah, I, I had everything against me and you know, at the same time I literally, like literally, my wife was having a baby. Oh, my goodness. So I was going through all of it.

Dr James, 33m 20s:

Business ain't easy, bro, business ain't easy. I think it's fair to say.

Dr Zain, 33m 24s:

Exactly, but you know, fast forward what, from October 23 to where I'm at now, I've got a practice manager who started off as a nurse, who I retained from. From there she's now my practice manager. Going through that journey I've had I have, like, new reception team, I have new dentists, I have a therapist who actually does therapy in terms of bread and butter and fillings, so I use them as a therapist, not a hygienist, um, and I've got out and out hygienist and, um, yeah, so I wrote an article actually, uh, with dentistrycouk, um, and I think we're going to be doing another follow-up on the hygiene therapy model, which is quite relevant now because that's actually articles that are actually being put on. But that's changed a little bit. Um, and this just shows you how much, how willing I am to take that risk, um, but it has paid off and I'm lucky it's paid off because I had a lot of drop-offs at the beginning, um, and I look at, I look at my drop-offs and I have looked at my drop-offs and I've gone home to my wife who actually believe or not, is the finance side of things. No, no clue about dentistry. She's not dental background. However, she goes Zain. What the hell is happening here? Why are there's more? Why are they? She goes business concepts to have money. You need patience, right, because patients take your money. Why is it that this week you've got 18 patients not on the list anymore? And I'm trying to basically explain to her like don't worry, things are you know, they're working. We've upped the out, we've upped the fees and things like that. So I'm trying to kind of put her at ease, um, and put her mind at ease. But at the same time, I've just literally just thought of it in a positive way and what I believe is that the value that I bring in terms of the ethos that I'm bringing, not only are going to kind of kind of like be part of the team that I've now developed, but even the vibe that I get from patients coming in from now to what, what they were before like very negative. I can literally see it with patients that are coming through the door that have actually bought into the culture of what I actually bring. And it's so cool, it's so nice speaking to these patients and we've had a bit of a surgery revamp as well, and I've had to do that very fast because I go back to the warranty claims that I put in that saved my bacon. It just so happens I've had issues as well along the way where plumbing has failed, shoddy workmanship has been done as well, and that's where I'm at with the legal side of things. I've had to actually take finance out to pay for all these things and as a result, yeah, I've just ridden it with positivity and you know, this is where I'm at today. So I know I've kind of like really fast track that. I just didn't want to kind of dwell into loaded detail. I'm happy to go back on certain things, but all I would say is my main message from where I'm. What I'm saying now is you've just got to kind of believe in what you do and, and that's kind of what I live by at the moment.

Dr James, 36m 40s:

Boom, I love it, man, and it's it's. It actually kind of reiterates the why the vision thing is so important and why, it coming from the heart is so important because sooner or later you're gonna get shit thrown at you. If you start a business like it just will happen. Right, it happens at day one.

Dr Zain, 37m 1s:

Exactly.

Dr James, 37m 1s:

It's like the first minute, right, something is just going to hit you in the face like bam, because Elon Musk not everybody is his fan, of course, but there's this saying that he has, and he's like, if you think about it, when you're the CEO, all the worst problems find their way to you, because the definition of being up here is that the hard shit that everybody can't deal with gets to you, right, so you're a filter for all the nonsense, right, and listen, some people thrive off it. I actually like that. I get a genuine big kick out of if there's a really big problem and we fix it, and it's like, yeah, we come up with some really sick innovative solution, and I'm kind of getting a vibe that that's you as well. So it's what. What I'm saying is it's. It's just, if we can share these things with people, then they know what the path looks like and they can figure out if they're, if this is something for them or it's it's not for them. Zain, I'm gonna ask you a question, right, you go back and talk to your younger self, just about to embark upon practice ownership, and he says, Zain, will it be worth it? Is it worth it so far?

Dr Zain, 38m 6s:

yes, even though, even though I go home every single day and I have a moan not about myself, because I do that to my practice manager, and we hash through things and try and put things in order because my staff are incredible right, they have their own, they have their own and they have their own like headaches, um, but I go home every day, but then we work through it. I go home to my wife and I'm always sort of moaning about certain things and I get scared as well, I myself. I wake up on, I wake up at the end of the week and all of a sudden I'm like this business is gonna flop. And then I, I go in on monday and go do you know what? No, it's not. And I go through those bouts because, um, I I'm a real, real fan of Stephen Bartlett on Diary of CEO, hence the group name. Okay, and um, he said and um, and this is a really, really super, super cool thing that I picked up from his podcast is that if you're not out of your comfort zone, if you don't feel like you're out of your comfort zone, you're doing something wrong. Okay, and every single day, as a practice owner, I'm always out of my comfort zone and that just shows you that I feel like I'm growing because, as you just said there, you touched on it, that, and you thrive on it and that's how you grow and that's how I have grown. And I look back in october 23 and I look back at where I'm at now and do you remember all of those that sheet I told you about of what have I achieved? You know that sheet that I went back and said that do I enjoy doing dentistry? Am I going to be in a practice where I'm able to go in every day and love what I'm doing, you know, and feel relaxed, because that's what I feel like when I'm actually doing dentistry, because I'm doing it for the team. I can tick all of those off. And but one thing I have learned is and if I can reflect on it, the most hardest thing for me is managing people because they bring their own um again. Going back to Dario ceo, as you can tell, I'm a big fan. Um, you have to almost make their problem your problem as a ceo and you have to kind of. If, for example, um someone has a personal issue, you have to, you have to be very much like um and I'm struggling with this. I find it very difficult as well because I have my own problems, but you have to kind of like almost you know empathise and delve into it, because obviously if they feel crap at work, then it's going to spoil the productivity for you and you want to be able to be that boss that they can go to and be very supportive as well, and that is something that I would say I've learned and I'm still learning, and that's a real struggle for me and that's something I would love to kind of be better at.

Dr James, 40m 54s:

Well, you know it's not easy, right, because you're basically the emotional obelisk, right, and people, they cast their emotions onto you and it's tough, you know. But, as you say, there's an opportunity for personal growth there, isn't it? To be able to absorb it and reflect it back in a positive way, which is not always easy, and listen, we can't always do it, can we? But that's what we're striving for. You know what you were saying earlier about the challenge side of things, but that's what we're striving for. What you were saying earlier about the challenge side of things, what I really like about running a company is it's like you can just see everything that happens is an opportunity for growth, right, and that gets me excited in that I would feel like if I ever feel like that process is not happening, then I get bored so fast personally. You know it's this horse I'm just speaking from my perspective like I actually get a buzz out of that now. And there's there's a saying I can't remember where I heard this from, uh, but the saying is it was something along the lines it was a business owner and he was talking and he was like how do you deal with the challenges on running your business? And he said something along the lines of, yeah, but the bigger the dragon, the stronger the hero, which I really like. I'm fired up. It's like, yeah, okay, it's just a big old dragon, right and it's. It's, it's there, it needs to be conquered or vanquished or whatever, right, so it just puts it on you. It's like, yeah, but if I was, okay, you know, I can overcome this. I just have to work myself. I just have to become that hero. Yeah definitely.

Dr Zain, 42m 26s:

You have to look at everything in a positive light as well, like, I mean, I look at it. There's a social media image I don't know if you've seen it, but there's this person taking a train journey and this one person sitting on opposite sides is looking at to the right-hand side there's like cliffs and there's a wall, and the other person is looking at like a nice, beautiful river and scenery. Um, and it just it's exactly everything that you take, even in your own personal life. Right, that's what I look at is that you always look at the positives and it's like a puzzle that you're trying to solve, and for me, um, every day I go in, it's a fresh new puzzle. Um, and and you said it yourself it's like, um, if every day was the same, it'd be boring, and and I enjoy it secretly, even though it stresses the hell out of me and I probably have this much hair now um, I think probably in a year's time, your hairline is looking good mine it?

Dr James, 43m 27s:

mine looks like it's receding, but what I?

Dr Zain, 43m 28s:

have in my defense is.

Dr James, 43m 30s:

It's been like this since I was 14, so I think we're stable here for the moment, but um, it's funny, right, because you know that meme that you're talking about. It's like you're on the bus and one side of the bus is really shiny and bright right. Then the other side is like really gloomy and there's like on the bus and one side of the bus is really shiny and bright right. Then the other side is like really gloomy and there's like a little bit of text below each of the person yeah I saw. I saw one once, uh, that was dental related, that had that meme and it was like the the sunny person was, uh, the sunny side, this person on the sunny side of the bus. The text below them said something along the lines of when you think mb2s are really rare. And then the gloomy side was when you realize 95 of upper molars have mb2s and you're like, yeah, and that was definitely me. I was like, oh, another tooth without an mb2 nice one, yeah I thought it was like one in a hundred, but actually it's the other way around like 99 have them, you just have to find them. Anyway, we digress Zain words of wisdom. There'll be some people out there who are just about to embark on the journey of owning a practice. They'll be associates, or at least they're thinking about it. What would you say to them?

Dr Zain, 44m 36s:

so I would say, uh, we touched on the facebook group. I have right, uh, that I've set up, please, if you can. It's called Diary of a Principal Owners. If you join that group, that's probably a good fresh start, because you get to lock horns with other principals. You know that you can learn off them. They can, you know, they can give you a bit of advice. So that would be my first stepping stone. The second stepping stone is look at your own self. Okay, are you happy as a dental associate? Because it's not just it's not as easy as saying that I want to own a practice because you're going to have to have everything else that comes with it. Okay, so, aside, if you're going to go in it for the money, you might as well just not bother, because that money is not going to happen like straight away as well. Um, and it's the same with anything, um, I think, James, if you agree, if you chase the money, it's not going to happen. You have to love the drive and the passion. So what I would say to those people is that what I would say to my own self for those people is that have an ultimate goal For me. I wanted to solve the fact that I wasn't happy one working for others. Two, I didn't enjoy having that box of materials I had in my hands because I wanted the clinical freedom. And three is I wanted to go in and just bloody enjoy myself, you know, and enjoy doing the things I wanted to do. And if I was sitting here now I would clearly say to you that I have actually got those three things resolved. But you have to be prepared for and you have to do a bit of pre-planning as well and have some sort of strategy going in. What I would say is speak to. I think the best advice would be speak to a broker, similar to how I um had christian at lily heads, great guy um and and and he knows me as well, um, so even if you just name drop me, I won't get anything from it, by the way, and probably a thank you. I'm not getting nothing from it, but he, you know we help each other out. Like, at the end of day, if you just, if you just literally sit down with him and say I'm looking at going on this journey, will you be able to like just hash through what would be the right, right place to start, and I think that's a good, that's a good place, and otherwise, you know, just send me a message for those that are looking to embark on on it and we can just have a chat and just go from there. So, uh, the facebook book, the facebook book, I mean the facebook that has been set up, um, it's called diary of practice principles, um, and every week we have like a topic. Well, I have a topic. It's like little therapy in terms of what's happened that week or challenges, what's on my mind and the. The real reason for me to put that at the end of the week is, um, for just to open the engagement up and because this is where we can kind of have a little bit of a debate, like share sort of thoughts, processes, and also, um, it's able for people to jump in and have a bit of a discussion. So, um, yeah, if, if you guys do want to join that group, you'll be able to see every week there'll be a new topic and then you can just pass through certain scenarios from there.