Dr James, 1m 43s:

August slash September is a pretty painful time of the year for us dentists because our indemnity fees are due and those can tally up to quite the expense. So certainly anything that can save on that front and ensure that we're getting the best deal is helpful. And that's why I have Mr. Adam O'Keeffe joining us today from AllMed Pro Insurance Specialists. He's here to share with us what us dentists need to know in order to save some money, get the best deal, ensure that our cover is adequate for all eventualities, and make this time of year as least painful as possible. As ever, you can claim your CPD for this episode within the official Dentists who invest Smart Money Members Club. Smart Money Members Club also includes multiple mini courses and webinar series on finance for dentists, including how to become as tax efficient as possible, as well as understanding investing. All of this content counts as verifiable CPD, and you can download your certificates there and then upon completion of each lesson. In addition to this, we also include a whopping 10% discount on your dental indemnity and a 5% discount on lab bills for dental principals, amongst other perks and discounts for members. Please use the link in the description to claim your verifiable CPD for this episode. Something super topical today, which is indemnity, and this is the time of year where us dentists start to think about it again. And I've got my good compadre, good friend, Adam O'Keeffe Satwaifu today, head of All Med Pro. We're gonna be talking about indemnity and what you need to know to get the best deal because everybody feels like they're paying too much, right? It's a common gripe. Us dentists love a bargain, right? And that's fine. That's okay. What do you reckon, Adam?

Adam, 3m 25s:

Yeah, well, you certainly do, and um, yeah, it's it's that time of year. Uh July, August, September, uh, the peak of indemnity renewals. Um, so yeah, uh good time to have this conversation for sure.

Dr James, 3m 38s:

Let's do it. Interested to know, and it might be there's probably this might have an obvious answer. I'm gonna ask it anyway. Why is it that around about now there is a peak? Is it because this is when all the FDs, or sorry, the well, yeah, the FDs go into work, right? And then this is it's like the renewal of the academic year. It's like a knock-on effect from that, right?

Adam, 3m 59s:

Yeah, you've you've got a spot on the um most high most of them graduated around this time of year, first job, um, going into work September, October time. So there's a few other times of year where um there's slight peaks, January, February. Um, but other than that, yeah, this is this is peak season.

Dr James, 4m 19s:

Interesting. There we go. I'm gonna ask another question that might have an obvious answer, but again, I want to ask it anyway, because this is always at the top of dentists' minds. Why does it go up so much, almost like exponentially in the first few years? The the fee for indemnity, the renewal fee. Adam, why do dentists typically experience that, at least with some companies?

Adam, 4m 42s:

Um, well, if we if we're talking uh those who've recently qualified, um, quite often there's a bit more supervision around the first couple of years, so it's staged, the premiums increase. Um, in terms of increasing uh in in general terms, which we are seeing uh many of the indemnity providers increase their rates uh year on year, the main factor to that will be claims. Um we have seen claims trends on the app and claims costs on the up over the last, you know, uh well year on year. So um that's the main driver for premiums going up generically, I would guess.

Dr James, 5m 18s:

Got a got a query as well, interest someone for the audience. I know that there is a common theme that litigation is going up in dentistry, or at least there was over the last few years. Is that still on the rise or is it kind of leveled off?

Adam, 5m 33s:

Um I would say it's it's not as it's not as on the rise as it was, say, four or five years ago. It is leveling off, but claims claims are still very costly. Um, so that's that's that's where the issue still lies.

Dr James, 5m 48s:

Yikes, okay, and naturally that's gonna come through in our indemnity bill as a dentist. Well, listen, it's a little bit like this. If we're gonna have to pay for something, let's make sure we're paying for value. So let's cut to the chase. How do us dentists know that we're getting a good deal when it comes to our insurance renewal or our indemnity?

Adam, 6m 12s:

Well, there's there's a lot of good indemnity providers out there nowadays in the last 10-15 years since 2011 when we set up uh, you know, you only had three uh indemnity providers, medical defence organizations, and it's it's kind of moved on quite a bit over the last uh over that period. Um I would say you look beyond uh sort of the claims occurrence, you look beyond the contract certainty, you look beyond the 24-7 support, that's a very minimum, in my opinion, uh what you should have. Um you look beyond that, what else can that indemnity provider provide me at my time of need? Where is that um, you know, something might hit the press? Do I need PR or reputation protection? Um, you know, I'm struggling with uh, I don't know, mental health, or you know, what else can this indemnity provider help me at my time of need? And I think that's that that's it really. Um so yeah, it's getting fair value for what you are are paying for and um making sure that indemnity provider is on on your side.

Dr James, 7m 16s:

I see. So as a minimum, those would be the things that you would expect. So that's almost like a checklist. And am I right in sending not every obviously we're definitely not hearing named, but just out of interest, you know, you know more about the market than me. It's not always a given that every provider provides that stuff, right?

Adam, 7m 32s:

No, not all providers um offer the occurrence cover, um, and not all providers provide contract certainty. Um by contract certainty, I mean an insurance product with terms and conditions. Um uh or and you know, most do offer the 24-7 support, but again, it that that's the sort of minimum expectation you'd expect to speak to a dental legal advisor if you've got a uh a query or or require advice.

Dr James, 7m 57s:

Interested to know, and I feel like you'll know the answer to this. Is there is it a bit of a is I don't know if this is an urban myth or not, but some people say that even when you consult your indemnity provider over the phone, as in you just have a query or there's some sort of sniff of a complaint and you're speaking to them for advice, that that then means that your indemnity goes up.

Adam, 8m 20s:

No, um, well, I say I say no, not for us. Uh we encourage uh individuals to give us a call at the end of the day. If we can uh get on to something early and stop that sort of uh going towards a claim or escalating, we want to know sooner rather than later. And I know uh there is a project, uh I think it's called Project Steer, um, where a number of the indemnity providers uh are within that group, and that is one of the main intentions of it, not to penalize dentists for using the advice line. Um so from our perspective, call us as much as you need. Um we want to help you out early doors.

Dr James, 9m 2s:

Well, that makes sense actually, now that you said out loud, because surely that investment of time on the provider's half, on the provider's behalf, uh basically uh will mean that they can then subsequently avoid more of an outlay later.

Adam, 9m 21s:

Yeah, 100%. That's exactly it.

Dr James, 9m 23s:

Makes sense. Interesting, interesting. Okay, one thing we have to talk about because this is a topic of contention that I still feel a lot of dentists don't know about this. And certainly for the ones that do, they're a little up in arms about it. Discretionary versus non-discretionary cover. Yeah, maybe it might be nice if we had a bit of an explainer as to what those terms mean, first of all.

Adam, 9m 52s:

Yeah, of course. I touched on it um right uh right back at the beginning. Um, when we first set up in 2011, it was uh three discretionary providers. Now, discretionary cover is pretty much as it sounds. Um, it's down to the discretion of the provider whether they will cover a claim or not. Um now, I always say, would you insure your house for fire and then wait till you've had the fire to find out whether you're covered or not? Um you know, uh, would you cover your car? And then, you know, you have an accident and it's only at the point or the time of the accident you know whether you're covered or not. I don't think many of us would. So with discretionary cover, there's no sort of terms and conditions, um, there's no financial ombudsman service at the end of it. So if you if a claim is repudiated or rejected, then you've got no rights of recourse. So on the flip side, you have contract certainty or a contract of insurance, it has the terms and conditions, uh, it has the you know, you you complete your proposal, you say you're doing X, Y, and Z, they they cover those for you. And any exclusions will be there in black and white. Um, and I mean exclusions, it's normally active activities you haven't declared. Um so it's and again, if there are any issues with that claim, you've got you have got the Ombudsman service and the right of recourse. So um for me it's it's pretty obvious insurance or contract of insurance is the way forward.

Dr James, 11m 27s:

And am I right in saying because I guess what might be going through some people's heads who are listening is they might be saying, hey, but if I get non-discretionary, or sorry, if I get discretionary cover, in which case, well, really it's not even necessarily the case that they'll give me cover should there be a claim. I guess what some people might assume is that that is cheaper as a result.

Adam, 11m 51s:

No, no. Um in some cases, you know, in some cases it'll be more expensive. Um yeah, looking at looking at uh all all the indemnity providers, um, there's not too much between them in terms of what you pay nowadays. Um there's just different uh tweaks between what they cover and what they don't.

Dr James, 12m 12s:

I see, so that's not even necessarily the case. Well, it's good to spell that out, right? Because you might assume that from listening.

Adam, 12m 19s:

Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah.

Dr James, 12m 21s:

It's a bit like to use a crude analogy, comprehensive cover for your car versus third party. The third party is gonna be cheaper, right? But there's less cover. Uh but it's not even it's not even quite third party. It's just it's because at least third party you definitely will get something if someone crashes into you, is literally just the case.

Adam, 12m 39s:

There's some providers out there who offer claims made insurance, uh, which is cheaper. Um by claims made insurance, it is a con is contract certain policy, but what it is is if you it's a bit like your car and home insurance, really. Um whilst the policy's enforced, your cover's enforced. Once that policy ends, cover ends. So in the scenario of a dentist, you do treatment yesterday, your policy's in force. Um yeah, it expires tomorrow. If a claim comes in for treatment performed yesterday and it's expired in a couple of days, you won't be covered. So that is cheaper. Obviously, there are ways you can work around that by renewing the policy, going elsewhere, getting runoff cover. But um, yeah, there are cheaper options, but I I wouldn't uh advise taking claims made to insurance unless you unless you really need to.

Dr James, 13m 30s:

Interesting. And you just touched upon something that was always a question in my mind. Let's say you have a dentist who is covered their whole career, and then all of a sudden they retire, and then let's say they don't renew their GDC. I don't know if that makes a difference or not, but let's say they don't renew their GDC, then let's say a patient like 10 years later makes a claim against them, where does that money come from? Do they chase the dentist off?

Adam, 13m 56s:

Uh yeah, so if you're on an occurrence policy, um, as long as uh that policy was in force at the time of the treatment, no matter how long in the future a claim comes in, you'll be covered. So it would go back to that policy. So say a dentist retired in I don't know, 2015. Um, they have a claim come in now for treatment performed in 2015, for instance. As long as they had an occurrence policy in place, it should pay out.

Dr James, 14m 22s:

I see. And let's say they didn't have occurrence cover in place. Would they subsequently personally be liable or would it be the general practice?

Adam, 14m 31s:

Yeah, unless they've uh unless they've um found any other arrangements, there there are things that you can arrange like runoff cover with the insurer, but usually that's payable annually after you retire. Um some insurers include that as standard for maybe three years, five years, ten years. It depends on the insurer, really. Um but yeah, if if there was no cover in place, um these law firms like to chuck mud, so they'll chuck mud wherever it sticks, whether that's the individual dentist, whether that's the dental practice, or what whether that's any other dentists who have been involved in the treatment. So um, yeah.

Dr James, 15m 7s:

Wow. So they'll they'll just put their mind to it and try to find a way, basically. Yeah. I see. Okay, interesting. I always had that query in my mind. I was like, how did that work? Because you hear about vicarious liability.

Adam, 15m 22s:

Yeah.

Dr James, 15m 23s:

But that doesn't matter. Yeah.

Adam, 15m 26s:

Yeah, that that's where that would come in, yeah. Um often the name above the door will be the dental practice. Uh a claim comes in or claimant makes makes a claim. The law firm will look to involve all parties involved in in that treatment, usually. Um, and quite often it'll it'll fall on the individual's indemnity. Um, but the vicarious liability is there for a number of reasons. One, if if they do have uh, you know, if if they are at fault in any way in any way the practice. Two, if that individual um, and we do see it, goes back overseas, we can't find the indemnity cover, or um, you know, or thirdly, maybe even the cover's expired, or you know, we touched on it a moment ago, if it was on a claim is made basis, they have not renewed it or they've not, you know, um, that that's where the precarious liability might start step in.

Dr James, 16m 19s:

Interesting. So, Adam, if we had to summarize everything, if you were to give everybody who's a listener to this podcast a checklist of the hot fact things that they hot, hot, hot and sharp, hot and fast things, sorry, is the word I'm looking for, things that they can take away to their indemnity provider to make sure that they're covered and that all the bases mentioned in this podcast are well, we we've got those, we've got those protected, you're like they're the they're working for the dentist, or we've got those in our hands, shall we say? What would that be? What would that be? I know we'll put you on the spotlight there, but I feel like you should have.

Adam, 16m 54s:

Well, I've touched on uh two or three of them already. So claims occurrence, first and foremost, do they offer that? Yes, uh great. Contract certainty, again, we've we've touched on that. Uh we've said the 24-7 support and advice, make sure that you know, uh, maybe have a look who their dental legal advisors are as well. Um, you know, there's some really good dental legal advisors out there. There's other things you want to look at, like um contingent cover. And what I mean by contingent cover is there if you have moved from a discretionary provider to an insurance-backed provider, um, you and the claim come in for the time you're with a discretionary provider, um, if there was if that discretionary provider repudiated a claim, you're left a bit in the lurch. So a number of the insurers, including ourselves, will provide contingent cover which will pick up any claims repudiated for the period you with that with that discretionary provider. So it just gives you that extra sort of uh security when you're moving. Because I know moving from the likes of uh the MDOs, um, those who provide that that kind of cover, sometimes you know you've been with them for 10, 12 years plus. Um, and it's quite a big jump. Um, and there's some uncertainty, and I think just having some extra security around that that move is quite important. Um what other words, I mean I think there's also other things like what we offer uh 24-7 GP support service. Now, it might not sound much, but it's quite popular with our members. Um, if they're real or a member of their immediate family are real, they can call up, um, get some help, get a prescription, you know, get back to work quicker, even. Uh, so I mean, it's just looking at what else they do around around the indemnity and how else they can support you at your time of need. PR and reputation, what do they do around that? Um, we know things do get out into the press, um, and your reputation, uh, as you all know, is vital. So, you know, uh, what else can they do to support you in that in that time? We we've got a PR team who will step in, help you out, um, and try and turn that what might be which will be negative news into a sort of a positive spin. So those kind of things I'd really look out for.

Dr James, 19m 18s:

That is crazy, right? That that that can be done, you know, uh that you can kind of uh so you how does that work? Just out of pure curiosity, more than anything else. Is it that you you release press and media outlets that basically say positive things about the dentist, or you go to the source and you're like, hey, this isn't on? I'm just curious.

Adam, 19m 38s:

Yeah, a lot of it is um and it's way above my pay grade in terms of what they do, but um they've got PR teams who will go onto the likes of Google uh and put positive news uh out there on you and try and it almost try and get that negative news down um through the ranking. So um yeah, it's it's quite clever how they do it. But um yeah, it's it's I I think it's a vital thing to have. Um some other things are like and it's it's it's what I think uh is dentists need really, or or they need to look beyond year one. They need to look like what does next year look like, what does a year after? Um something we do is we provide a price guarantee for three years, uh, you know, subject to not having lots of claims, for instance. But um I think that gives you just the assurance, you know, I'm I'm paying this much next this year, next year it's gonna be the same the following year. And as part of that, we'll then give you a two weeks free cover next year, four weeks a year after. And I think I think I think for the type, you know, it's not it's not a small outlay indemnity. So I do believe it uh, you know, you should have some reward for your loyalty. So that's one thing which it's it's just looking at those additional covers those those indemnity providers can offer you.

Dr James, 20m 56s:

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Adam, 22m 46s:

We would be more than happy to provide you with an audit of your indemnity, see uh any money you can save, and also give you any advice on your current arrangements. Uh please call me personally on 07725-580148 or adamallmed.co.uk is my email address. We've got a link below, uh, which will take you to our proposal and our indemnity offering.