Dr Pav, 1m 15s:

My name's Dr. Pav Khaira. You may have heard of me, you may have heard my podcast. I'm here to show you some real numbers that I'm doing. And these aren't numbers that are unattainable for other people. And what I want to do is I want to talk you through the secrets. Because a lot of what we do in dentistry, we don't think about the business aspects. Or if we do think about the business aspects, we think that it's unethical to talk sales. We think it's unethical to charge patients appropriately.

Dr James, 1m 46s:

As ever, you can claim your CPD for this episode within the official Dentists who invest Smart Money Members Club. Smart Money Members Club also includes multiple mini courses and webinar series on finance for dentists, including how to become as tax efficient as possible, as well as understanding investing. All of this content counts as verifiable CPD, and you can download your certificates there and then upon completion of each lesson. In addition to this, we also include a whopping 10% discount on your dental indemnity and a 5% discount on lab bills for dental principals, amongst other perks and discounts for members. Please use the link in the description to claim your verifiable CPD for this episode.

Dr Pav, 2m 42s:

Okay. What do I know about business? I can tell you what I don't know about business because I've made every mistake under the sun. Why? Because I had a failing practice for the best part of nine years. And after just under nine years, I think it was eight years and ten, eleven months, something like that, my practice went under. I lost my house, I entered bankruptcy, and if it wasn't for my parents, I would have been on the streets as well. So my parents put a homer in my head. At the same time, I went through um uh bankruptcy, I was going through a separation and divorce. So at that time, to say I was depressed is an understatement. I was actually suicidal. And um it was only when I was there one evening, ready to end it all, that I looked down and I saw my dog. Bless him, he's not with us anymore. But he's the one who saved my life that evening. Because I looked down at him, he was nudging my leg, and I don't know if he wanted to go out or whether he wanted a treat. But I thought to myself, you know what, I made a promise I was gonna look after him. So if I do something to myself, he's gonna be given away. The reason why I'm telling you this is we all go through hard stuff, it's just not talked about in social media. Everybody pretends to have a social perfect life, that's not true. When it comes to implants, I'm good at what I do. I've placed 12,000 implants, I've done over a thousand arches, uh, I um do zygomatic subpriostal frames. My favorite is single implants. And the reason is per hour, particularly if you do multiple single implants, there's nothing that comes remotely close to that. But in order to understand that, we need to understand what's happening in our business. Now, business owners will probably know this better than associates, but associates normally look at their pay statement at the end of the month. How much of you break it down week by week? How much of you look at it day by day? Most importantly, how many of you look at it hour per hour? How can you give significant discounts to patients and double your hourly rate? Sounds oxymoronic, but it's not. You need to think about it differently. And this is what we're going to go through today. So those of you who know me know how I have my own training academy, and that's whether you're starting an implants, but you know what? 20% of my delegates have got an MSc. The common thread why they come to me is they want to learn in depth because they understand if they learn in depth, A, you can do things that other people can't do, therefore you can charge what other people cannot charge, but in addition to that, people are prepared to come a longer distance to you because you have skills that other people do not have. I have patients driving four, five, six hours to come and have me do their implants for them because I'm doing stuff nobody else can do. This is why I'm a believer that whilst we're talking about business, it's secondary to building your clinical skills first. You cannot skip that process. If you skip that process, what ends up happening is you end up with unhappy patients at some point because things go pear-shaped, you cannot identify why, um, or you're getting suboptimal outcomes. But the converse is true as well. If you understand biomechanics to a deep level, you can skip stages, save chair time, and give better better outcomes to patients. This is why when I say I can do XYZ, I can place immediate implants when there's no buckle plate. People turn around and say to me, That's impossible. You know, it's impossible for you. The evidence is clear, the studies have been done, it is possible. You just need to know how to do it. So I'm gonna show you some of the things that that that we actually go through. So this is what I was talking about. We need to know our operating margin per hour. If you're an associate, ask your practice principals what the um uh what their um uh what per surgery is their outlay per surgery. Average practice is about 85 pounds an hour, which means if that surgery is empty, you are paying out your pocket 85 pounds an hour. This is why NHS practices often struggle, particularly with associates trying to do 25, 30 UDAs a day. You're barely breaking even. Not only the principal barely making any money, but at the end of the day, at the end of the uh month, he has to give a certain percentage of it to the associates. Okay, understanding business isn't is not a dirty term, it's not a dirty word. Okay, I didn't go through all of this training not to support my wife and my daughter. Okay? As passionate as I am about implants, it's secondary to my life. I've spent £500,000 of my own money learning how to do this stuff, and that's what patients are paying for. And you guys need to understand whether you place implants or don't place implants, you all have a certain level of skill. You deserve to be rewarded for it. Okay, if you're just gonna bash out 20, 25 UDAs a day, you're gonna be better off reskilling, learning to do heating engineering, because I'll tell you what, you'll earn a lot more. Hell, you'll you'll earn the same amount cutting hair as an NHS dentist trying to bash out 20, 25 UDAs a day. What's the point? You've got all that stress, all that headache that goes with it. Okay, unfortunately, NHS has drummed it into us that this is all that we're worth. That is not true. Patients will pay for your skill set if you can communicate them and if you do it ethically. There's loads of people out there doing it unethically, and eventually they get found out. When they get found out, that's it, that's their that's their career over. So it has to be done right. We need to know what we are doing per hour. I hope that makes sense to everybody, okay? Once you understand what we're doing per hour, we start to understand how we can start to magnify that. So let's just look at general dentistry. I did this poll and said, uh, you know, what's a relatively, in general practice, what's a relatively high-ticket item? A lot of people said, yeah, we you know, crowns. And said, okay, how much are you actually earning per hour per hour? Have you actually calculated that in a private setting? Look, total chair time, one and a half hours. That's not unreasonable. Hour for prep, half an hour for fit. Okay, you're looking at your total lab cost, whatever it is, okay. And now we're looking, you look at your operating app £430 an hour. Now you have your baseline, and that's a high-ticket item. If you're doing an MOD composite, you may be charging 295. It may take you an hour to do. Okay. Here's what happens when you introduce high-ticket items, okay? Per hour, my minimum operating time, I'm not going to get out of bed unless I'm doing a thousand pounds an hour. Yes, I take an associate split, but I don't have the headache of owning a practice. Been there, done that, don't like it, not for me, don't like the HR aspect, don't like anything. What I'm good at doing is I'm good at doing surgery and I'm good at communicating with patients. Call it sales, call it whatever you want. I am passionate that what I give my patients is ethical and it's the right thing to do. And that's really important, that's really important. Because I'm not making a sale to the patient, I'm helping them. Sometimes they don't understand it because I understand the evidence better than what they do, but just by introducing something different, okay, and this is why I always say to my delegates and people who I talk to, some of you have spoken to today, whatever you want to do, pursue it with passion. Get really good at it. Okay, I say this to my daughter, I couldn't care if she wanted to be a tattoo artist, but I would be adamant on you've got to be the best tattoo artist on the planet. There's one guy, I can't remember where he's in, I think he's in Italy or Greece, a tattoo artist. Okay, to book an appointment with him nine months in advance. So he's booked up for nine months in advance. The guy charges £7,000 a day because he's damn good at what he does. Okay, you can get damn good at efficiency limits, but I don't think you're gonna be charging that amount. You need skills that patients are prepared to pay for. Surgery is taught at such a low standard. How many of you can take take out impacted teeth, impacted apes? You know what the waiting list is for the hospital for this? So a couple of hands went up when I said how many people can take out impacted eights. So 95% of you didn't put your hand up. And I take out impacted eights, even though most of what I do is is um is implant based. I charge the same hourly rate as what I do with implants. Guy down the road will do it for a fraction of the cost, but I'm still busy. Why should I do it for less? And I do it under sedation, the patient gets a good service. The patients are only bothered about can you do a good job and are you gonna look after me? They don't care about anything else. So we need to start looking at what we can do with our hourly rates. Here's the other thing: if you don't place implants, doesn't even matter if you're in an NHS practice, you are medico-legally obliged to tell patients about implants. Part of the process. For patients having a tooth out, other than for AIDS or um or for orthodontic reasons, if you don't there have been cases of this where an NHS dentist didn't give the patient the option, because they're like, is an NHS dentist? Patient successfully sued for placement of an implant and future maintenance, because they're just like, you made an assumption I could have afforded it, you didn't know that. Patient was on benefits, it was a load of nonsense, but that's not the point, we're talking medico-legal now. So here's the question that I have for you how many extractions are being done in your practice by you or by your entire practice, where that conversations not being had? So let's say you're in a busy mixed practice. Let's say you are taking out 50 teeth per month in a multi-associate practice. You should be having 50 conversations per month about implants. You know what? If 50 of those patients take off, your biggest the uh start accepting uh treatment, your biggest problem's gonna be how you do 50 implants in a month, because it's very difficult to do 50 in a month. Even so somebody's experienced as myself. But the whole point is you have 50 conversations, two or three of them may go ahead. That two or three, all of a sudden, starts to make a massive, massive difference to your bottom line. Okay? So you multiply that number by 3,000 dish. Okay? You can charge more, you can charge less. I know some people charging £6,000 per implant. I charge about £3,800, £4,000, £4,000 for an implant. Um I know other dentists where they want to do volume, so they'll charge £2,000. You need to figure out what your hourly rate is and what you want to do with your business. And then you make things fit around there. There's a space for everyone and everything. So what we need to do is we need to start looking at the compound curve. And we need to you know, people always turn around and say, Oh, I do dentistry because I love it. Really? How about this? Don't ever charge any patients again. If you love dentistry that much, let the patients have it free of charge. That's a load of nonsense. Everybody's here to generate an income. Okay? Otherwise, there's no point doing it. Why would we do something so medical legally risky? So if you increase your skill, you can charge more. You also have less and less competition. This is why you can start to charge more patients who come for a longer and longer distance. But you can only start to understand this type of stuff if you understand what your hourly rate is. Now, some of you have said to earlier already, I have the skills to do very complex full arch. You know what my favorite implants are? My favorite implants are two or three single implants on the same patient, nothing complicated to do. Why? Because surgically it's less risky. But in terms of hourly rate, what ends up happening is if I'm booking an hour to place a single implant, and that patient is coming in, and we're talking about three healed sites, and it does happen, but these patients they they're unicorns, but they do come in, okay? So you'll get this patient coming in, they need three implants in healed sites. You know how long I'm placing for the taking for those uh three implants? An hour. Still takes me an hour. Now, I've experienced some of you guys are less experienced, it may take you a bit more, but your hourly rate's still gonna be significantly above general dentistry. So then what we need to do is we need to start looking at, okay, we know what our hourly rate is. Uh I'm placing three implants instead of one, I'm gonna give myself an extra half an hour. Then you can start to look at it and go, okay, I know what my hourly rate is, I know what I want for it to be. Actually, you know what? I can give a discount to the patient. The patient thinks they are getting a good deal, but my hourly rate goes up. This is how we need to think about it. That's not unethical, that's ethical. I'm giving my patients bigger and bigger discounts the more the more implants that they have. They're happy because they get a bigger discount. I'm happy because my hourly rate goes up. What my hourly rate is has got nothing to do with the with the patients. But here's the other thing: how often do we think of a number that we're gonna say to the patients, by the time it comes out of our mouth, you've already taken 20, 30% off it? Okay? So when I'm giving these discounts to my patients, I turn around and say to them, look, you need to have four implants done. If you're having them done individually, I'd be charging you £4,000 per implant. If you do them all four in one time, I'm gonna charge you £2,500 per implant. In their mind, they're getting £1,500 off per implant. But I've just doubled, tripled, quadrupled my hourly rate. That's not unethical, that's ethical. If they turn around and say, I'm gonna have them done in one at a time, fine, then you pay full price. But you have to tell them the discount that you've given them. Never give them the discounted price first and the full price afterwards. Okay, psychologically, you've got to anchor them in at the higher fee. So if you if you're gonna shock them, don't shock them with this number and then shock them with a higher number. Shock them with a higher number, that's your anchor, then bring it down. It sounds cheaper to the patients. This is how we start to operate at higher and higher margins by understanding what our hourly rate is. Okay? Proficiency. I see a lot of dentists doing full arches, and they never calculate the amount of time it takes them. Not only for the surgery, but for the restorative point of view as well. And by the time I sit down and calculate it when I'm when I'm helping them build their implant business, I show them that you're operating at such a low hourly rate, you're better off doing singles. So I turn around and say to them, you've got one or two options. You have to upskill, and the only way that you can upskill is have if you have enough full arches coming in. Otherwise, what's the point in doing it? Like if you're doing one or two arches per year, you're not gonna get enough in order to be able to upskill. Okay, if you find that you're getting one arch a month, an archer a month, then the opportunity is there for you to upskill. A lot of people focus on the big arches. I don't. My practice used to be like that. I used to focus on the big ticket items and miss all the bread and butter. Now I've switched it. Now I focus on the bread and butter implant stuff, and the rest of it's just gravy on top. And this is really important. You see companies gunning for full arch, full arch, full arch, full arch. Okay so these companies are we do dual arch for 25,000, we do dual arch for 18,000, we'll do it for 11,000, we'll do it for eight and a half. You know how much I charge for a dual arch? Minimum 40,000. And I tell my patients, your treatment with me is 40,000 pounds, there's a company down the road that'll do it for half that fee. No, no, no, I want you to do it. Why? Because they understand my skill, they understand that I've invested in that cycle. There's a big, the big ride that people get into where they're like, we have to do full arch because it's profitable. It may not be profitable. You need to start breaking down the numbers. We have to have to start breaking down the numbers.

Dr James, 19m 21s:

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Dr Pav, 21m 11s:

I had this patient come in not very long ago. This is one of those unicorns. I get them maybe once every three, three or four times uh per year. Where they've got the funds, somebody else has already taught a turn around and send them. They don't want to have metal implants, they want enzymeal implants, healed sites, dead easy to do. And you know what? I calculated, I gave my patient um the best part about 9,000 pounds off this treatment plan. She was thrilled. She thought, wow, this is fantastic. But my hourly rate was 6,000 pounds per hour. We need to understand what our hourly rate is if we know, if we want to know how much we can discount, how much we can do this, how much we can do it. And more importantly, you need to know your hourly rate, is if you need to know whether you need to put your fees up or not. This is really, really critically important. So we're so focused on month after month after month, or week after week. Oh, it's been a good week, that's been a quiet week. But have you broken it hour by hour? If you're in a busy practice and you just focus hour by hour by hour, you know what? Your hourly rate starts to skyrocket. And it's the same with single implants, same with restorative, right? How many times do you sit down and it's just like, no, I've sat down with people and they're like, oh, I'm gonna see the patient next week. What for? Take stitches out, why don't you just put resorbable sutures in? You're saving yourself 20 minutes. If you can save yourself 20 minutes three times throughout an appointment, throughout a or over, what's happened is you're charging the same fee, it's an hour less chair time. This is why we have to think on an hour by hour basis. It's really, really important. Okay. So there's four levers that we actually work on, that I work on. This is what I developed over the years. First is capability. If you don't have the capability, nothing's gonna happen, or you're really gonna struggle, or you can't charge the fees what you want to charge. Okay? Second one is efficiency. Why waste Chair Sign when it's not mandatory. Okay? It's mandatory to have a follow-up appointment with patients after surgery, particularly in the mandible. You have to have to have to have that done. Okay. So I have a pro forma that my TCO or my nurse uses, phones the patient the next day. Oh, how are you feeling? She's got a checklist of uh of things that she needs to ask her patient, right? And on that are red flag items. If she calls it and the patient starts showing these red flag items, she brings it to my attention, I make the decision whether the patient needs to come in or not. Medical, legally, that's defensible. You don't have to bring your patient in for the sake of doing it. This is why we need to work on efficiency. Okay. Do you need to spend 45 minutes or an hour scanning uh uh uh uh uh scanning for a restoration? Absolutely do not. I book half an hour, it only takes me 15 minutes. I'm just at that point in my career. If it takes me 15 minutes, I don't want to book 15 minutes. I charge the patient more to block out pretty good time. This is why my nurses enjoy working with me because I rarely run late because I block out so much time. And I tell the patients you're paying for that time. Because I don't like running late. The next one is volume. We just discussed this. What happens when you can give bigger discounts? The patient thinks they're getting a better and better deal. And all that all that's happening is your fixed overheads stay exactly the same, but your hourly rate increases, so you just become more profitable just by thinking about it. Okay, and then finally, sedation. Now I include sedation in the cost of what I'm doing. You don't have to do that, it depends what model you want to build, right? I'm in a privileged position where patients will go home, they'll Google me, they'll find my podcast, they'll find the academy. So that in itself brings credibility. That's why they want me to do it. Okay, they also want me to do the zirconia implants because there's nobody in the UK who's bloody doing that many zirconia implants. I'm like, screw it, I'll do it. Patients are prepared to pay for it. But what you may do is you may offer sedation as a bottle-on. And even if you don't do it for if you get good at doing sedation, you don't have to do it just for implants. You can offer it for general dentistry. You know what happens when you start doing that? If a patient comes in and wants to have fillings done under sedation, you turn around and say to them, it's gonna take me longer, I've got to charge you more for your fillings. And then in addition to that, you turn around and say that um uh we're gonna charge you for sedation as well. They don't like it, there's a door. They're nervous, they need to have it done. Okay, we've got quite a lot to get through, just we can have a 10 minutes heads up, so we're gonna try and try and go through it a little bit more uh uh um uh uh uh quickly now, okay. But this is what I was saying to you, we've covered this already. If you're not competent and better than average, you're going to struggle. You will struggle, okay. This is why I say whatever it is you want to do, you've got to get really good at it. Okay. We need to look at the patient fee, we need to look at the chair time, then we start calculating the hourly rate. Okay, it'd be nice for me to do 6,000 pounds an hour all day, every day. It doesn't happen, okay? But I know on average, if I've got a busy day, how much my hourly rate is, and it allows me to build in these um uh these uh uh uh discounts for patients while my hourly rate still goes up, and I'm happy with that. Okay, the efficiency, smarter workflows, okay. So sometimes that means I place the implants and scan the patient at the same time, and then the next appointments fit. So I've just saved myself half an hour chair time, okay. You see a zirconia implant going in there. Patients, these are these are the patients who've prepared to come four, five, six hours because nobody around them is is placing zirconia implants. I'm like, I'll do it. Because I know the evidence, they integrate the same. There's some evidence to suggest it's actually better than titanium. What's that? Sorry? Is that it? Uh can you guys hear me if I talk like this? If I talk like this, is that alright? Yeah, okay, fine. Okay. So when you when you when you improve biology, when you understand uh improve your understanding, what happens is you have fewer complications. You have less pain for the patients, the patients are happier. This is all really critically important. So this is this is why I say you can't just plumb in the business side of it. The biomechanics come first. For those of you placing implants, if you understood the impact having an angulation or deviation on an implant angulation has on biomechanics, you'd all be going 100% guided every single time, I promise you that. Okay, and then we start looking at volume pricing. Okay, there's one thing I want to get to where I'm where I'm showing you. This is just that volume pricing. We've discussed this already. Okay, if you know what your hourly rate is, you can calculate how much you want to discount by. The patients love it because sometimes these numbers are really big. Okay, and then sedation. It's absolutely fantastic, patients will pay for it. So if I'm taking out an impacted wisdom tooth, I charge £2,000 for that under sedation. But the patients don't like it, they can wait two years for the for the hospital. Okay. So we need to understand what our hourly rate is. This isn't just for implants, this should be this should be going for absolutely everything. Okay. So just a little bit about the academy. The academy is not for people who want to dabble in implants and just kind of like, oh, I just if you're those, I just want to learn to place so that I can generate money, that's not what I'm about. Okay, you don't have to become a full implant dentist. You know, you can if you're doing general dentistry, that's fine. But what you have to understand is you have to understand I teach in depth because of the reasons that I told you. The business comes later. If you know that there's five steps to get from here to here, but biologically we can skip two of those steps and save ourselves half an hour, 45 minutes, your hourly rate goes up. So business and understanding biomechanics go hand in hand. I've got different options, and there is a diploma for those interested as well. But this isn't actually what I want to show you. What I want to show you is I want to show you the direction that everything is moving to. Okay? My stands over there. If you want to come speak to me about the uh uh the courses afterwards, that's absolutely fine. I can take you whether you're a novice or whether you've got an MSc, I can expand your skills and your knowledge. That much I can guarantee you, okay? This goes back to what I was saying. I don't care what it is that you're interested in, just be passionate about it. The passion is really important. This is what I want to show you. This is next level. This is something I've been working on for about five or six months, and I'm looking to make it um uh uh available to delegates as well. AI implant engines, a not chat GPT where you where it just googles the result for you or look worse looks on Reddit. I fed it all of the information, it knows stuff. So this is an example, and I've said, pretend I have a nerve injury, pretend I've got a sinus complication, run me through what needs to be done, and what it's doing is it's looking at the decision process and telling you what to do. I'm also working on the next stage, which is you can input data into it and it'll create your patient notes, and it will also create um uh your your consent as well. So I'm looking to add this in, but this is the way that everything is heading at the moment. So at the moment, if the uh if delegates have got a question they need to ask me, and I run it through the system, but I'm trying to make it available for all delegates. AI is here, and AI is going to change the way that we do things. I personally think that medico-legally, companies like Dental Law Partnership are probably already using AI and we are behind it. So, what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to get ahead of the curve. Look, it's it's telling you step four, you need to classify what your n what your nerve injury is, it's talking you through it. So, what happens is if you follow all of this step by step and ask it to create the uh the notes for you, you've got something which medico legally is incredibly powerful. And I can I I can even say to it, give me the bibliography as well. So it will turn around and say, Here's what you need to do, these are your references out the bottom. I say, Cool, on that, generate the patient notes and include that bibliography. I can't copy it into the patient notes because I want it so that if anything were to happen, and the nature of what we do, things will happen, but I want it so that if anything goes legal, that actually the opposing law partnership, whatever whoever it is, turn around and go, There's no point pursuing this, that they just give up before it even goes. So, this is what I am doing with AI at the moment, and I'm looking, I'm speaking with my web developer to make it accessible to my delegates as well. But can you see how comprehensive this is? Now, the issue that we have is you may know this, but the chances of you forgetting something is quite high because we're relying on this. Whereas this system knows it and it will just prompt you. So look, it's telling you, you know, you need to have a CBCT. This is what you're looking for, this is what you need to, this is this is on the sinus complication, and it tells you this is the escalation that you need, this is the pharmacological protocol that you need. And all that I said to it is patient's got uh uh sinus pain, six weeks post-op lateral sinus, what could be going on? And it's saying this is your escalation ladder, that's the reference that it has to do with it. So we're talking about next level care, which is AI generated. The problem that we have with a standard AI model is if you were to go to Onto Claudo Chat GPT and just turn around and say to it something like this, I've got a nerve a nerve injury, it will just do a Google search for you and tell you what it finds on Google. I've programmed the actual data into this, I fed it textbooks, scientific papers, and said, This is the thought process behind how we have it. This is the way the future's going. So I can do things if I've got a if I have a case where I'm a little bit not sure what to do, I can turn around and say, here's my diagnostic criteria, this is what I think I need to do. Have I missed anything? Turn around and say, actually, yeah, you may want to consider this, this, and this as well. That helps you with your diagnostic process. But in order to do this, you have to have the skills associated with it. And having the skills is one thing. But if you were to spend 20 hours placing a single implant, just for the fun of it, just because the passion of it, and you're thinking to yourself, it's an implant, of course it's profitable. You've spent that long placing it, that long restoring it. Have you calculated what happens to your hourly rate? Is it any better than general dentistry? And the question is, if it's not better than general dentistry, why are you bothering doing something that is medico-legally a higher risk with no reward attached to it? Our reward as professionals, as all professionals have, is monetary. That's the nature of business. So I know the more complicated, the higher risk I want to do stuff, the more I want to be paid for it. And if the patients don't want that, they can go to somebody else. That's fine, that's not a problem. I want an easy life. Not only do I want an easy life, I want a profitable life. And in order to do that, what I focus on is I focus on my skills. I still learn, I still have my mentors, I still go on courses, okay? Even after £500,000 of my own money plumbed into training, okay. But I understand what my hourly rate is. And I understand what my hourly rate is because of the problems that I had with business. When I had business, I just used to look at it on a month-by-month basis. If you'd have asked me when I own my practice, what's your what's your what's your overheads on an hour by hour basis? I wouldn't be able to tell you. I wouldn't be able to tell you, I wouldn't have an answer for you. I've learnt through my mistakes, as we all do. Okay? Please do take a photograph of this if you want. That's my mobile number. Don't spam me. But one of the easiest ways to get hold of me is WhatsApp. Okay? The uh my Instagram handles are on there as well. I forgot to put the uh dental implant podcast on there as well. What I ask above anything else, you need to be passionate. I don't care if it I personally hate endo, okay? But back when I was doing general dentistry, the endo dontist that I used to refer to could do an endo start to finish flat 50 minutes, including core buildup. And he charge £850 for it. He knew what his LD rate was, I'll tell you that. And he was proficient, and the patients loved him. Doesn't matter if it's endo, ortho, implants, sedation, whatever it is, please be passionate about it. The business comes later. Business will automatically come by itself. Okay? I think we're being asked to wind up, folks. So thank you very much for your time. If you want to speak to me, just back there. I had